270 WSM 130gr. bullet speed?

[SOTN]

TN Deer Hunter:

You asked the question. Maybe you don’t like the answer.

I’m sure that yeayow was trying to help, and he is undoubtedly correct.
Even at factory velocities, loads will be hot.

I understand a desire for increased velocity when you have a WSM to justify, but apparently, the 270 WSM isn’t that much better than the regular 270 Winchester, and sometimes not as good.

An article in the Sept/Oct. 2005 RifleShooter Magazine, written by Layne Simpson, which compares the 270 WSM to the standard 270 Winchester bears this out. The rifle barrels are the same length, and you can see from the tables that he compares both handloads and factory loads. (The 2nd figure represents the 270 WSM.)

Of course, loads and rifles vary a lot, but so does pressure.
Smitty of the North

BALLISTICS COMPARISON
.270 Winchester and .270 WSM
270 Win. -- 270 WSM
Best accuracy handloads: .82-- .89
Best accuracy factory loads: 1.18-- 1.09
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average accuracy handloads: 1.69-- 1.75
Average accuracy factory loads: 1.54-- 1.61
Average accuracy overall: 1.64-- 1.70
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Highest velocity, 130 gr, handloads: 3,153-- 3,262
Highest velocity, 130 gr, factory: 3,218-- 3,156
Highest velocity, 140 gr. handloads: 3,011-- 3,040
Highest velocity, 140 gr. factory: 3,077-- 3,134
Highest velocity, 150 gr. handloads: 2,952-- 3,058
Highest velocity, 150 gr. factory: 2,841-- 3,058
Highest velocity, 160 gr. handloads: 2,834-- 2,844

 

[TN deer hunter]

SOTN,

Did you not read the above post where I had replied to yeayow? For your info I loaded some 270WSM with Magpro and got 3,353 with 130gr Interbonds with no pressure signs, no regular 270 will do that. So to say that the 270WSM is no better than the 270 is crazy. BTW I am not trying to justify buying the 270WSM. I got a good deal in it from my local gun shop and it was the last Winchester Ultimate Shadow left. I would rather have had another 300WSM but like I said it was the only one they had left so now I have a pair of Ultimate Shadows one in a 300WSM and another in 270WSM. Also when Layne and the other gun writers publish their handload data they are not going to publish anything that goes over published load max's for liability. I have read alot of articles by Lane and other writers and they all have said on occasions when they worked up loads for some of their rifles that they could get alot more fps out of some loads than those published with no pressure signs, and that alot of these published loads were conservative.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I agree 110%, no .270 Win is on par with the .270 WSM. Its a good 150-200fps faster with all bullet weights. The .270 WSM in my mind compares more to the 270 Weatherby. If the Weatherby had a 24", or the WSM had a 26", they would be even closer to performance. For price and performance, you cant beat the 270 WSM.

 

[7mmfan]

In a 26 inch barrel yes...just barely, prob not in a 24. The options/combos are to few to think it'll group.

 

[SOTN]

SOTN,

Did you not read the above post where I had replied to yeayow? For your info I loaded some 270WSM with Magpro and got 3,353 with 130gr Interbonds with no pressure signs, no regular 270 will do that. So to say that the 270WSM is no better than the 270 is crazy. BTW I am not trying to justify buying the 270WSM. I got a good deal in it from my local gun shop and it was the last Winchester Ultimate Shadow left. I would rather have had another 300WSM but like I said it was the only one they had left so now I have a pair of Ultimate Shadows one in a 300WSM and another in 270WSM. Also when Layne and the other gun writers publish their handload data they are not going to publish anything that goes over published load max's for liability. I have read alot of articles by Lane and other writers and they all have said on occasions when they worked up loads for some of their rifles that they could get alot more fps out of some loads than those published with no pressure signs, and that alot of these published loads were conservative.

TN Deer Hunter:
Let me suggest that 3353 fps with your load is, in itself, a pressure sign.

If you will read my post again you will perhaps notice that I didn’t say, “the 270 WSM is NO BETTER than the 270” I did say, “the 270 WSM isn’t THAT MUCH BETTER than the regular 270 Winchester, and SOMETIMES not as good.”

You can overload the 270 Winchester just as easily as you can the 270 WSM BTW.

I also said, “Of course, loads and rifles vary a lot, but so does pressure.”

So I agree that higher than usual velocities are possible, but I doubt if such a load could reliably be considered conservative.

The WSM factory loads are loaded hot. The maximum pressure specs. are hot.
If you do some research on these Internet forums, you will find posts describing problems with WSM factory loads, because they are too hot for some rifles. I would think it risky to exceed what a Factory Load will do.

Layne’s testing was valid, as far as I can tell, even considering there would be differences if he used different rifles. He tested Factory Loads, as well as handloads. The 270 WSM’s performance is so close to that of the 270 Win., that it seems to offer little advantage, and what advantage it has is probably due to higher pressure loading.

According to the Lyman’s 47th “in a 10 shot test there could possibly be as much as a 10,000 psi difference between the highest and lowest pressure generated.”

The truth is, you don’t know what the pressure is in your rifle, but if you know that you’re exceeding factory load velocity, that should tell you something. Why not chronograph some factory loads in your rifle? It might give you a clearer picture.

Like Yeayow, said, you can load your 270 WSM as hot as you like. I just wanted you to know the downside, not only for yourself but other people who might be misled into thinking this is an acceptable practice.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m a “Know it all” or “Crazy”. Sometimes I can’t help myself.
Good Shootin
Smitty of the North

 

[TN deer hunter]

I see what you are saying however, In a Shooting Times article on the 270WSM the shooter was getting 150fps more velocity with a Savage than he did with a Tikka with his handloads as well as factory loads and the loads were all the same. So if what you are saying is correct he should have backed off on his handloads and not shot factory ammo at all in the Savage because they were shooting faster than the factory ammo out of the Tikka. Another thing that amazes me is that in loading manuals some maximum charges are as much as 6 grains lighter or heavier than those in other manuals of the same powder. If I get pressure signs I back off on my loads but I am not going to let what someone says is hot in their rifle dictate on how I find what shoots best in mine. If my loads are faster or slower than theirs thats fine, as long as there are no pressure signs. I am after accuracy first then velocity. If I want a regular 270 I can load my WSM to a regular 270's performance but I can't load the standard 270 to a WSM. So I would have say the WSM is better but that's just my opinion. I guess this is why we love to reload, everyone has a different opinion as well as load. :mrgreen:

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

SOTN- That was 1 rifle, that doesn't mean much really if you want a lot of data. Also, not sure if he used MAGPRO in the 270 WSM which is the powder for speed in the 270 WSM. Also, theres so much to do with throats, chambers, maybe he got a fast barrel, maybe a guy got a slow barrel, over all length to the lands, etc.. You know. 100fps is not squat and theres so many variables in that 100fps that its negligible. Let YOUR rifle tell YOU whats going on. No 1 rifle is the same as the next even though it came right off the same line as the other 1. I think we should all know that around here by now....

 

[SOTN]

TN Deer Hunter:
I don’t quite understand what you are saying. I wouldn’t suggest that you not use a load because it was hot in some other rifle. I agree that you should load for YOUR rifle. The load could be even hotter. From the get-go, I stated that “loads and rifles vary a lot.”

If handloads are faster than factory loads in the savage, it is probably producing greater pressure than factory loads also.

If handloads are faster than factory loads in the Tikka, it is probably producing greater pressure than factory loads also.

I guess you have more faith in pressure signs than I do, besides possibly ignoring substantial increase over published velocities as a pressure sign. I’m very cautious, at least I try to be.

It is my understanding that much earlier loading data has been modified down since better pressure testing equipment has become available. I have loading books with data that was derived using only pressure signs. They don’t do it that way anymore.

By the time you get pressure signs, you are already way too high. As far as pressure signs go, I’ve been removing the primers and checking if they have spread, and are larger on the top. It’s pretty easy to see, if they are.

Smitty of the North

 

[SOTN]

Remingtonman_25_06:
100 fps is a lot when you are trying to get a gain over the standard 270, that isn’t quite there.

The 270 WSM has slightly greater powder capacity than the 270, so it should deliver slightly greater velocity. I don’t think it is 150-200fps faster with all bullet weights, as you stated. Not when loaded to the same pressure, which it is not, in factory loads.

The published factory velocities for a 270-130 grain bullets used to be 3140 fps. Nowadays, most are less than that. That could eventually happen with the 270 WSM too.

I turned down an opportunity to hand load 300 WSMs the other day. (For someone else) The guy lives out in the bush. I wouldn’t have access to his rifle, and I didn’t think I could duplicate factory loads.
Smitty of the North

 

[TN deer hunter]

SOTN,

I think all the factory WSM's are loaded down now, compared to when they first came out. I think this was a big reason why they became so popular so fast. I know I love both of mine. I understand the issues with pressures and respect your input but to each his own on the way they check for it. :wink:

 

[moreloader]

SOTN,

I have read your whole series and I am not sure what you are saying. If you are trying to say there is little advantage over the standard 270 all you have to do is pick up any reloading manual. They all say that the 270 WSM will produce 150-200 FPS over the 270. You are correct that the WSM uses higher pressures 5000 psi greater. But, it is designed for this. I now have the 270 and 300 in WSM. I would never go back as they not only give an edge in velocity but they are both short action rifles with faster bolt times and lighter actions. This is the true advantage of the cartridge. Actually, the 270 WSM is the only one of the three that actually improves on its velocity. They all have inherent accuracy which we should all expect with the 6mm BR.

 

[SOTN]

"I understand the issues with pressures and respect your input but to each his own on the way they check for it."

TN deer hunter:
I understand that. You gotta go with what you know, and your own experience.
Smitty of the North

 

[SOTN]

SOTN,

I have read your whole series and I am not sure what you are saying. If you are trying to say there is little advantage over the standard 270 all you have to do is pick up any reloading manual. They all say that the 270 WSM will produce 150-200 FPS over the 270. You are correct that the WSM uses higher pressures 5000 psi greater. But, it is designed for this. I now have the 270 and 300 in WSM. I would never go back as they not only give an edge in velocity but they are both short action rifles with faster bolt times and lighter actions. This is the true advantage of the cartridge. Actually, the 270 WSM is the only one of the three that actually improves on its velocity. They all have inherent accuracy which we should all expect with the 6mm BR.

Moreloader:
OK, I AM, saying there is little advantage in the 270 WSM over the 270 Winchester, and probably most of it is due the higher pressure loading. Some would be due to the increased case capacity.

Handloaders will want to load for that 150-200 fps increase you mention, and will probably do it at more than 5000 psi greater than the 270, if their rifle still operates. If they load to sane pressures, the gain will be less.

I base my conclusions, largely on Layne Simpson’s testing results.

How is the 270 WSM, for example “designed” for greater psi?
Does it have thicker brass?
Is it shot in stronger rifles?
Is there some magic in case shape, that allows it to handle higher pressures?
Is there some comparison with the 6 BR that makes it more accurate?

So you like the WSMs, and you think that a tiny bit lighter weight, and shorter bolt throw is a big deal. Good for you.

I think the WSMs are mostly hype, designed to sell rifles, and the shorter bolt throw and smaller action is of little consequence. Good for me.

If you’re right, the WSMs will endure. If I’m right, they will fade away. Probably, there will be some of each, and you’ll know you were right, all along.

Smitty of the North

 

[moreloader]

I agree to each his own. I was just saying what published reloading data with pressure reportings, which you can find in Lyman's 48th edition, shows (150-200fps). In my mind that is not much, and the article you quote is correct a lot of this is due to the rifles having a 24 inch tube instead of a 22 as most 270's. As far as designed for greater pressures, that is the words of SAAMI. I am certainly not an internal ballistics expert. I would further wage that in a bolt action rifle of modern make the 270 can handle the same pressures but industry says no.

No hard feelings just stating the facts.

The 6mm BR comments were the support of the short fat case concept which contributes to even burns and quicker ignitions. That all spells shot to shot consistancy which is the key to accuracy.

BTW, I love the 270 and have not completely made up my mind on the 270 WSM yet. If it is anything like the 300 WSM I am sure I will love it, but I will give my rifle a chance to prove that right or wrong.

 

[SOTN]

moreloader:

I don’t dispute your facts.

I just found Layne Simpson’s test results interesting, and surprising.

The rifles were Weatherby Vanguards, with 24 inch barrels.

I’m re-reading the article, and I noticed that the 130 grain 270 factory load that was faster than the 130 grain 270 WSM factory load was the Hornady Light Magnum ammo.

The premise of the article was not to say that the 270 WSM wasn’t much better than the 270, but that was my own conclusion after seeing his results,

My original reason for posting was to agree with yeayow’s caution about loading the 270 WSM beyond factory velocities, because it is a cartridge already loaded hot in factory loads. Some cartridges are underloaded, by today’s standards, but not the WSMs. You probably can’t safely load faster than a factory load is in your rifle, although powders and whatnot can make a difference.

Safe Loading to you too.
Smitty of the North

 

[moreloader]

That makes a lot of sense, and I have read Simpson's article. The only increases above factory velocities is going to be with new powders such as MagPro and Retumbo. Which I might add, check the MagPro 270 win if you own one. You can get a lot more velocity. Still over 150 below the same powder in 270 wsm but much faster than any factory offering. My own tests though have found that MagPro is very finicky. I can't get it to give good consistancy without full cases, and top pressures.

 

[SOTN]

moreloader:
Yeah, I am reading the Hodgdon 2006 Annual Manual.

Using the 150 gr Hornady SP, and H1000, they show 2831 fps in the 270.

The same bullet in the 270 WSM with H1000 is 3001 fps With Retumbo it's 3071 fps.

If I got this all down right, that's a substantial gain. of 240 fps.

The article was about the 270, and Layne didn't mention which powders he used for the 270 WSM loads. I see what you mean.
Smitty of the North

 

[moreloader]

Glad to see you are coming around. Now all we have to do is convince you to buy a WSM. I guarantee they are the best wal-mart rifles in existance. $398 with a scope(cheap simmons) and will shoot under 0.5 MOA (the few that I have seen) I own 2. Try one pick your caliber and enjoy.

 

[SOTN]

moreloader:
No, Thank You on the WSMs, but Thanks for the insight.
Smitty of the North

 

[Richracer1]

Glad to see you are coming around. Now all we have to do is convince you to buy a WSM. I guarantee they are the best wal-mart rifles in existance. $398 with a scope(cheap simmons) and will shoot under 0.5 MOA (the few that I have seen) I own 2. Try one pick your caliber and enjoy.

I have one of these "Wal-mart rifles" in 270WSM. They were special made for Wal-mart by Winchester. At 398+tax and CA DROS fees, it's a hell of a deal. Everything I load for it has shot sub-MOA. In fact the 140 AB load of 61.5gn of RL-19 gave me a cloverleaf that can be covered with a dime. One thing, ditch the cheap scope. A Vari-X III 3.5x10-50 sits atop mine.