.308 Powder help needed????

[nosler06]

Now if the darn weather would settle down I can get to the range to try some loads. I have removed the scope and lined the rings with masking tape and re-set it in place. It is a real chore to re-align the scope as not easy without a pro boresiter. Using sandbags on the kitchen counter and a squared up target on far wall of livingroom and several small magnetic levels I think I got it. Had to do it when wife was at work though. Lol

 

[Alaska]

IMR 4350 is not for the 308 Win to slow of a powder

Suggest:

308 Winchester using IMR 4895
150 grain bullet, 46.6 grains
155 grain bullet, 45.6 grains
165 grain bullet, 43.6 grains (Favorite Load) Sierra GKHP
175 grain bullet, 42.4 grains SMK Bullet
178 grain bullet, 42.0 grains

.308 Winchester using Varget
150 grain bullet, 47.8 grains Nosler AB
165 grain bullet, 46.0 grains
175 grain bullet, 45.0 grains (an all around favorite) SMK Bullet
180 grain bullet, 44.1 grains Nosler AB
200 grain bullet, low node 41.5 grains (10 twist barrel)
200 grain bullet, high node, 43.1 grains (10 twist barrel)

WW Brass
CCI 200's, BR-2's, and Federal 210's work well with Varget

 

[Horsethief]

Varget---an excellent choice in the 308 Win. The powder is excellent in keeping pressure/velocity consistent in very cold temperatures. Working up the loads as you've written is a great notion. Keep us posted on the results.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I hav not owned a .308 for about 10 years but hav owned (4) of them in the past. The powder that worked best for me with 165 grain Speer Hot Core bullets was IMR 4064. Best accuracy to in my rifles.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

N6, with a .308 size case I'd use .5gr increments.
A full grain is fine for a RUM size case, but too much for a mid size case.

If you start at 42gr and load 4 per increment, one box of 20 takes you to 44gr, the book max. This will provide a moderate increase of 2k PSI per increment, giving you a better opportunity to see changes in pressure signs, and group performance.

When loading I generally prefer more caution, and more data while discovering the limits of my rifle and components:

Cartridge          : .308 Win.
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler BalTip 30165
Useable Case Capaci: 46.812 grain H2O = 3.039 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon VARGET

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.136% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-11.4   93    39.00   2470    2235   40575   5900     95.0    1.412
-10.2   95    39.50   2499    2288   42060   5976     95.5    1.390
-09.1   96    40.00   2529    2343   43600   6050     95.9    1.368
-08.0   97    40.50   2558    2397   45200   6121     96.3    1.347
-06.8   98    41.00   2587    2452   46857   6191     96.7    1.326
-05.7   99    41.50   2616    2508   48570   6258     97.1    1.305
-04.5  101    42.00   2646    2565   50341   6323     97.5    1.285
-03.4  102    42.50   2675    2621   52176   6386     97.8    1.265  ! Near Maximum !
-02.3  103    43.00   2704    2679   54082   6445     98.1    1.246  ! Near Maximum !
-01.1  104    43.50   2733    2737   56062   6503     98.4    1.227  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  105    44.00   2762    2795   58119   6557     98.6    1.209  ! Near Maximum !
+01.1  107    44.50   2791    2854   60257   6609     98.9    1.191  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.3  108    45.00   2820    2913   62480   6658     99.1    1.173  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.4  109    45.50   2849    2973   64793   6704     99.3    1.155  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.5  110    46.00   2877    3033   67199   6747     99.4    1.138  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.7  111    46.50   2906    3094   69704   6787     99.6    1.121  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[vodekzz]

I loads with 308:

168 or 165 grain - Varget 46 gr.

175 gr - Varget 44.5gr ( the best and very accurate )

180 gr. PT - Varget 44 gr

For me Varget simple. Very stable each load with Lapua brass and CCI BR2 primers.

Vodekz

 

[nosler06]

vodekzz and Antelope_Sniper, thank you so much for the info. I am wondering Antelope_Sniper what manual you are seeing 44.0gr as max. I have the Nosler6 manual and it says that 46.0gr of Varget is max for the .308 with a 165gr Nosler Partition. I have no desire to push a lever action rifle beyond book max. I have pushed past max with my bolt Win Model70 30-06 while always looking for pressure signs while doing so. As for the lever action, IMO, the action of an older rifle does not seem to be as strong as a bolt action. I am still waiting for a break in weather to head to the range. We have had approx 20-24" of snow fall over the last 72hrs. Kind of hard to get to the outdoor range with that dump. Maybe just after Christmas.

 

[DrMike]

vodekzz and Antelope_Sniper, thank you so much for the info. I am wondering Antelope_Sniper what manual you are seeing 44.0gr as max. I have the Nosler6 manual and it says that 46.0gr of Varget is max for the .308 with a 165gr Nosler Partition. I have no desire to push a lever action rifle beyond book max. I have pushed past max with my bolt Win Model70 30-06 while always looking for pressure signs while doing so. As for the lever action, IMO, the action of an older rifle does not seem to be as strong as a bolt action. I am still waiting for a break in weather to head to the range. We have had approx 20-24" of snow fall over the last 72hrs. Kind of hard to get to the outdoor range with that dump. Maybe just after Christmas.

QuickLoad

 

[nosler06]

vodekzz and Antelope_Sniper, thank you so much for the info. I am wondering Antelope_Sniper what manual you are seeing 44.0gr as max. I have the Nosler6 manual and it says that 46.0gr of Varget is max for the .308 with a 165gr Nosler Partition. I have no desire to push a lever action rifle beyond book max. I have pushed past max with my bolt Win Model70 30-06 while always looking for pressure signs while doing so. As for the lever action, IMO, the action of an older rifle does not seem to be as strong as a bolt action. I am still waiting for a break in weather to head to the range. We have had approx 20-24" of snow fall over the last 72hrs. Kind of hard to get to the outdoor range with that dump. Maybe just after Christmas.

QuickLoad

Well I finally got to the range after recovering from a knee surgery all winter. Again I am shooting a 1970 Browning BLR .308. I use 165gr Nosler Part bullets and switch to Varget powder. Looking at the data from the Nosler #7 manual it shows that 44.0grs of Varget was their most accurate load, but as you can see from the pictures minus the pulled shot that 46.0grs was the best grouping that I shot today. This was from 100yds 4 shot groups and only sandbagged on the bech no leadsled. I think I will have to do some more reloads and then head back to the range next week to shoot the 44.0grs and 46.0grs loads again before I make a decision. I know that someone else had said 46.0grs was their most accurate to.

 

[DrMike]

Remember that the accuracy load was in their particular system. Your load with 46.0 grains will get the job done quite nicely. Congratulations.

 

[nosler06]

Remember that the accuracy load was in their particular system. Your load with 46.0 grains will get the job done quite nicely. Congratulations.

Thanks, I am going to load another set up and make sure I can duplicate this success again before fully committing to this load. That being said it does look pretty darn good when I look at it a day later. That old rifle has always been extremely accurate with IMR4350 powder. I am looking like a big fan of the Varget from what I have seen.

 

[Guy Miner]

That 46 gr load looked really good on target. Really good.

Me? I'd just stock up on those identical components and load up a couple of hundred cases and go hunt. That's your load!

 

[SJB358]

That 46 gr load looked really good on target. Really good.

Me? I'd just stock up on those identical components and load up a couple of hundred cases and go hunt. That's your load!

Heck yeah, with that rifle shooting like that! Find as much Varget as you can and have fun with that rifle! That is a SLICK rig and made to hunt!

 

[nosler06]

N6, with a .308 size case I'd use .5gr increments.
A full grain is fine for a RUM size case, but too much for a mid size case.

If you start at 42gr and load 4 per increment, one box of 20 takes you to 44gr, the book max. This will provide a moderate increase of 2k PSI per increment, giving you a better opportunity to see changes in pressure signs, and group performance.

When loading I generally prefer more caution, and more data while discovering the limits of my rifle and components:

Cartridge          : .308 Win.
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler BalTip 30165
Useable Case Capaci: 46.812 grain H2O = 3.039 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon VARGET

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.136% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-11.4   93    39.00   2470    2235   40575   5900     95.0    1.412
-10.2   95    39.50   2499    2288   42060   5976     95.5    1.390
-09.1   96    40.00   2529    2343   43600   6050     95.9    1.368
-08.0   97    40.50   2558    2397   45200   6121     96.3    1.347
-06.8   98    41.00   2587    2452   46857   6191     96.7    1.326
-05.7   99    41.50   2616    2508   48570   6258     97.1    1.305
-04.5  101    42.00   2646    2565   50341   6323     97.5    1.285
-03.4  102    42.50   2675    2621   52176   6386     97.8    1.265  ! Near Maximum !
-02.3  103    43.00   2704    2679   54082   6445     98.1    1.246  ! Near Maximum !
-01.1  104    43.50   2733    2737   56062   6503     98.4    1.227  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  105    44.00   2762    2795   58119   6557     98.6    1.209  ! Near Maximum !
+01.1  107    44.50   2791    2854   60257   6609     98.9    1.191  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.3  108    45.00   2820    2913   62480   6658     99.1    1.173  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.4  109    45.50   2849    2973   64793   6704     99.3    1.155  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.5  110    46.00   2877    3033   67199   6747     99.4    1.138  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.7  111    46.50   2906    3094   69704   6787     99.6    1.121  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

According to this table 46.0grs of Varget is a "DAGEROUS LOAD DO NOT USE" and 110%, so a very compressed load. This is now starting to have me slightly worried and confused. If it is 110% capacity how do I get the powder in enough to start seating the bullet?

 

[nosler06]

I confirmed that both Nosler Manuals #6 and #7 have the same data sets for the 165gr bullet and Varget powders. Hodgdon's site has this data for 165gr bullet .308 Winchester:

Bullet Wt(Gr.) Manuf Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. Pressure Grs. Vel. Pressure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
165 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Varget .308" 2.750" 42.0 2582 40,800 CUP 46.0C 2773 50,500 CUP

So, I think that from what I see other than this other chart that says 46.0grs is a dangerous load 46.0grs should be fine other than being a max load. I will be hitting the range on Tuesday, so load up some more and see what it will do again.

 

[SJB358]

Every rifle is different, but if your cases are coming out of the rifle, without excessive pressure signs, 46 grains of Varget is a great powder, and I think your handling it just fine.

 

[gerry]

QuickLoad shows theroretical loads so could be a bit off. I have seen some QuickLoad data for the 264 WM that would not be possible to use in my gun without some major pressure problems. I have read that the speeds that it predicts is usually possible but the charge weight needs to be adjusted for your gun, starting low and working up with a chronograph would be advisable.

 

[nosler06]

I have just finished reloading another 8 rounds of 46.0grs Varget and the 165gr Part. Also loaded another set of 4 rounds of 44.0grs Varget and the 165 Part. Heading to the range on Tuesday and will see what it looks like again.

 

[cloverleaf]

Nosler06- Good luck with your loads. Dont have any experience with any .30 cals. However, I have had some experience with "Dads rifle" that Might be worth while. If not- indulge me. IF your Dad had good luck with a load and its suddenly gone south I would ask the usual questions: Everything still tight- forend pressure still the same? The odds of a good scope going south are almost nil so I dont worry about that too much. Lastly and this is where "Dads rifle" comes in- is copper fouling an issue? My Dads 7 Mag was legendary for its accuracy for many years. Life changes things and he put it away for a few years. When he got it out for a "once in a lifetime" Elk hunt the best we could do was basketball size groups. It took him a while and a lot of frustration to try some "Wipe Out". He was always meticulous about keeping it clean with Hoppes #9 and I wasnt about to tell him that his rifle was "dirty". When he was ready to give up and grumbling about needing a new barrel I finally got up the nerve to say, "Well if your at that point, why not try some wipe out, what have you got to loose." After a weeks worth of a new shot of wipe out every night he finally said "I cant believe it was that carboned up".
I wish I could tell you it shoots a sub inch group now. He never shot it again. But I'd be willing to be its MUCH better. I have since saved a couple of friends rifles that were supposedly "shot out".

A couple grains of powder- even the same powder can make a huge difference too. My seating die has come loose on occasion and screwed up a "perfect load". I keep a "Proof round" when I find a good load so I have the "perfect" OAL for my rifle but if yiou keep good records you wont have to do that. Good luck with your load work. Keep Dads rifle shooting! and welcomne to the fun! CL

 

[nosler06]

Nosler06- Good luck with your loads. Dont have any experience with any .30 cals. However, I have had some experience with "Dads rifle" that Might be worth while. If not- indulge me. IF your Dad had good luck with a load and its suddenly gone south I would ask the usual questions: Everything still tight- forend pressure still the same? The odds of a good scope going south are almost nil so I dont worry about that too much. Lastly and this is where "Dads rifle" comes in- is copper fouling an issue? My Dads 7 Mag was legendary for its accuracy for many years. Life changes things and he put it away for a few years. When he got it out for a "once in a lifetime" Elk hunt the best we could do was basketball size groups. It took him a while and a lot of frustration to try some "Wipe Out". He was always meticulous about keeping it clean with Hoppes #9 and I wasnt about to tell him that his rifle was "dirty". When he was ready to give up and grumbling about needing a new barrel I finally got up the nerve to say, "Well if your at that point, why not try some wipe out, what have you got to loose." After a weeks worth of a new shot of wipe out every night he finally said "I cant believe it was that carboned up".
I wish I could tell you it shoots a sub inch group now. He never shot it again. But I'd be willing to be its MUCH better. I have since saved a couple of friends rifles that were supposedly "shot out".

A couple grains of powder- even the same powder can make a huge difference too. My seating die has come loose on occasion and screwed up a "perfect load". I keep a "Proof round" when I find a good load so I have the "perfect" OAL for my rifle but if yiou keep good records you wont have to do that. Good luck with your load work. Keep Dads rifle shooting! and welcomne to the fun! CL

Thanks, and that is great advice. I may go back and load up some of the IMR4350 rounds for this rifle from the reload data that my dad has and shoot some rounds. It would be fun to see what it shoots like with that. I have shot about 3 boxes of enforcement match grades through it aand it would drive a tack shot after shot. I don't think that the barrel has been shot out of it yet. I am going to run some "wipeout" through it. It is a little harder to use "wipeout" with the rifle being a lever action, but I will try it anyways. My 14yr old son is itching to go hunting this fall, so I need to find a good load by then and have him practice with it.