.338-06 AI

[filmjunkie4ever]

Always good to know that the Doctor knows what he is talking about. Makes me want to go back to him whenever there is any question!

While I do own one Remmy in 25-06 it was a heirloom from my Grampa. I love it but its my coyote/antelope/occasional deer rifle.

I use my Winchesters for the vast majority of my hunting. They have never let me down. I even have some friends with non-CRF Winchesters (70's and 670's) that have never been let down by them! That seems to always flash into my mind when I am buying a new gun.

 

[257 Ackley]

Tom,

Any of the three would be a great addition to your arsenal, and they would introduce a new level of lethality to taking big game.

I agree.

Where I struggle is I'm not sure what I'm trying to do that a 300WSM, .30-06, or .257 Roberts won't do (which are the M70 chamberings I currently possess).

But I've long maintained that the introduction of logic into such decisions is rarely the right thing to do.

Tom -
the 338-06 (AI) will do a lot that the 30-06 won't do, with ease. You can push a 210 grain Partition at over 2700fps and have a caliber with long range capability and great BC/SD bullets. If you Ackley the chamber, you are at the heels of the 338 mag with a lot less recoil, no belted cartridge and brass you can use right from the '06 you have been shooting.

 

[SJB358]

Tom,

Any of the three would be a great addition to your arsenal, and they would introduce a new level of lethality to taking big game.

I agree.

Where I struggle is I'm not sure what I'm trying to do that a 300WSM, .30-06, or .257 Roberts won't do (which are the M70 chamberings I currently possess).

But I've long maintained that the introduction of logic into such decisions is rarely the right thing to do.

Tom -
the 338-06 (AI) will do a lot that the 30-06 won't do, with ease. You can push a 210 grain Partition at over 2700fps and have a caliber with long range capability and great BC/SD bullets. If you Ackley the chamber, you are at the heels of the 338 mag with a lot less recoil, no belted cartridge and brass you can use right from the '06 you have been shooting.

Joel has said it better than I could. I really think an AI'ed 338-05 or Whelen would be just about heaven like. Both of those two are some serious cartridges and don't get fooled into thinking the 338WM is way ahead, cause it isn't. I have been working with the Whelen and 338WM and to be honest, if the 338 didn't have alot of sentimental value, it would be something else! Namely a 358 magnum of some sort! Scotty

 

[efw]

I bought an ER Shaw Savage 110 barrel kit a few years ago as a "winter sanity project" and had FANTASTIC results w/ the standard chambering... it was a heavier taper than I wanted and I needed some cash so I sold it recently, but then turned right around and ordered another Shaw tube in lighter taper and an AI'd version just for the break you get from trimming w/ those cartridges.

As it was, my standard '06 nipped right at the heels of the WM version. I gotta imagine that w/ a 24" barrel the AI version will be just a hair's breadth from the WM. I ran calculations and what you get in going w/ the WM over the standard '06 is a velocity increase of 4% at the cost of a propellent weight increase of nearly 20%.

My Shaw grouped everything from 180 gr NBTs up to 250 Barnes "O"s and Sierra Gamekings into sub-MOA. Talk about versatility.

I love the cartridge, personally, although there definately is a ton of overlap with its parent. Still, as much as I love the ole Springfield, there is definate cool factor there in the 338 version...

 

[GF1]

Tom,

Any of the three would be a great addition to your arsenal, and they would introduce a new level of lethality to taking big game.

I agree.

Where I struggle is I'm not sure what I'm trying to do that a 300WSM, .30-06, or .257 Roberts won't do (which are the M70 chamberings I currently possess).

But I've long maintained that the introduction of logic into such decisions is rarely the right thing to do.

Tom -
the 338-06 (AI) will do a lot that the 30-06 won't do, with ease. You can push a 210 grain Partition at over 2700fps and have a caliber with long range capability and great BC/SD bullets. If you Ackley the chamber, you are at the heels of the 338 mag with a lot less recoil, no belted cartridge and brass you can use right from the '06 you have been shooting.

Working hard to understand that, must take issue it. To improve penetration of the 30/06, you must use the really heavy bullets in the 338/06, buy into balloon trajectories, and even then, I don't buy it, as the 200 grain and 220 grain .308 bullets' penetrating qualities are legendary. I do agree that the .338 Winchester Magnum will do alot that the 30/06 won't do, but that's because of the extra velocity that gives those bigger bullets the same trajectory as the similarly shaped (B.C.) .308 bullets.

The .338/06 is a solution to an as yet undefined problem. If it's big, slow, stopping power in a "std" size case, the answer is not .338/06 but .35 Whelen or 9.3x62. If the .338/06 or it's AI brother fills you with euphoria, I'm all for it. Logic seldom gets in the way of us rifle nuts anyhow.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I like the .338 variations because of the bullet selection in that caliber from all the various makers. I already have a .338 Federal and a .340 Bee. The .338 Federal cartridge is probably destined to obsolescence but it was the right cartridge (at the wrong time) syndrome, I am afraid. However, there is nothing wrong with a rifle that will sling a 210 Partition, .338 bullet at 2600 fps in MOA or less groups.

Of course to each his own, and none of this has anything to do with any sort of defensible sense or logic anyhow!

 

[SJB358]

I think the 338-06 has alot going for it. For one, unlike the Whelen, it was loaded in Weatherby's and standardized by A-Square which gave is 62K or 65K load data. That really makes it shine above the Whelen on paper. The selection of bullets is a bit better for the 338, but to me, it really makes little difference as there are plenty of good .358 bullets to make use of as well. In order to get the Whelen into the same ballpark as the 338-06, you are going to have to "overload" from book data. At least that has been the case with my Whelen. Again, either one of them are fantastic rounds in my eyes. Both can shoot heavier bullets than the 30-06 to higher speeds. Yes, the 30-06 can shoot 220's that have great SD's, but the Whelen will push a 225gr bullet the same speed as a 180gr out of a 30-06. That 225gr .358 bullet has alot of SD and those bullets are tough. Again, I know 100 different arguments can be made for either one, but in reality, it comes down to what the shooter ultimately makes our clocks tick and heart flutter. Scotty

 

[257 Ackley]

I think the 338-06 has alot going for it. For one, unlike the Whelen, it was loaded in Weatherby's and standardized by A-Square which gave is 62K or 65K load data. That really makes it shine above the Whelen on paper. The selection of bullets is a bit better for the 338, but to me, it really makes little difference as there are plenty of good .358 bullets to make use of as well. In order to get the Whelen into the same ballpark as the 338-06, you are going to have to "overload" from book data. At least that has been the case with my Whelen. Again, either one of them are fantastic rounds in my eyes. Both can shoot heavier bullets than the 30-06 to higher speeds. Yes, the 30-06 can shoot 220's that have great SD's, but the Whelen will push a 225gr bullet the same speed as a 180gr out of a 30-06. That 225gr .358 bullet has alot of SD and those bullets are tough. Again, I know 100 different arguments can be made for either one, but in reality, it comes down to what the shooter ultimately makes our clocks tick and heart flutter. Scotty

Well said Scotty...The 30-06 starts loosing it's effectiveness when you ask it to push bullets heavier than 180 grains. I built the 338-06 as a mid-range rifle to use for larger game at 300 yards and closer hunting. It was the solution for the intended hunting application. Yes, we could all have 30-06's and get by, but than I would have to find some really ridiculous hobby to spend money on instead of rifles. I will never justify some of my calibers to the average person that hunts or shoots, but if they are effective for MY applications, I am happy.

 

[SJB358]

Well said Scotty...The 30-06 starts loosing it's effectiveness when you ask it to push bullets heavier than 180 grains. I built the 338-06 as a mid-range rifle to use for larger game at 300 yards and closer hunting. It was the solution for the intended hunting application. Yes, we could all have 30-06's and get by, but than I would have to find some really ridiculous hobby to spend money on instead of rifles. I will never justify some of my calibers to the average person that hunts or shoots, but if they are effective for MY applications, I am happy.

That is like that word "overlap"! Ha, I couldn't even begin to define that having a 264WM, 270WSM and 7WSM! I have exactly .020 difference in them and they are all basically the same darned powder capacity. I say build and shoot everything you want. You might regret not doing it someday. 308/35 Whelen's (my personal moniker for the 30-06) are great cartridges, but they are way cooler in the 338/358 variety. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

A 338-06 or a 35 Whelen is better than a stick if you happen upon an agitated grizzly. I can think of cartridges that would be less comforting in such a situation. With the larger frontal area, they are very effective on big game, and more so in close quarters.

 

[GF1]

I think the 338-06 has alot going for it. For one, unlike the Whelen, it was loaded in Weatherby's and standardized by A-Square which gave is 62K or 65K load data. That really makes it shine above the Whelen on paper. The selection of bullets is a bit better for the 338, but to me, it really makes little difference as there are plenty of good .358 bullets to make use of as well. In order to get the Whelen into the same ballpark as the 338-06, you are going to have to "overload" from book data. At least that has been the case with my Whelen. Again, either one of them are fantastic rounds in my eyes. Both can shoot heavier bullets than the 30-06 to higher speeds. Yes, the 30-06 can shoot 220's that have great SD's, but the Whelen will push a 225gr bullet the same speed as a 180gr out of a 30-06. That 225gr .358 bullet has alot of SD and those bullets are tough. Again, I know 100 different arguments can be made for either one, but in reality, it comes down to what the shooter ultimately makes our clocks tick and heart flutter. Scotty

Apples to apples comparison is important, meaning comparable sectional densities among a family of bullets (such as Nosler Partition). Nothing in the .35 or .338 family approaches the 220 grain .308 (SD .331), and the only bullet in the former two that approaches is the 250 grain .338 (.313). Further, the 225 grain .35 comparison to the 180 .308 is flawed (SDs of .251 compared to .271), and the 200 grain .308 with a sectional density of .301 really leaps to the front. We are tempted to make comparisons and judgements with these lighter for caliber bullets to prove the bigger calibers are better in penetration terms, and it just isn't so. Yes, these light-for-caliber bullets do seem to give us some free velocity for their bullet weight (because of less relative bearing area of the bullet in the bore), but there's no free lunch in the terminal ballistics area. Do a test of some gelatin or even wet phone books and I believe you'll be convinced. I'm also the first to note that killing power can't be reduced to such a simple calculus as SDs, and that frontal area does matter.

There is a reason that the 180 grain Nosler Partition has such a great reputation in the 30/06 and many other calibers as well. It's in a sweet spot in terms of sectional density, ballistic coefficient, and terminal performance that have allowed it to have longer effective trajectories while retaining fine killing power on the receiving end. No combination of the other calibers of which we've been speaking come close in overall terms.

 

[SJB358]

You are right, comparing SD's amongst them does make my comparison a little jaded. I guess to me, unless your only using a traditional cup and core bullet, SD's are NOT the only ingredient. Take the 300gr 45-70 PT. It will penetrate REALLY, REALLY well, often beating alot of other premium 350's and 400gr bullets! It makes up for the lack of SD with bullet build...

Again, not arguing, cause SD does play an impact, but when using 225gr TSX's in my Whelen, I have lost one petal, so the bullet weighed about 210grs'.. So it never really lost much SD during the penetration. I know what your saying, the frontal area and good SD's (of quality 338-358) make for plenty of penetration and excellent holes. Scotty

 

[Oldtrader3]

Well said Scotty...The 30-06 starts loosing it's effectiveness when you ask it to push bullets heavier than 180 grains. I built the 338-06 as a mid-range rifle to use for larger game at 300 yards and closer hunting. It was the solution for the intended hunting application. Yes, we could all have 30-06's and get by, but than I would have to find some really ridiculous hobby to spend money on instead of rifles. I will never justify some of my calibers to the average person that hunts or shoots, but if they are effective for MY applications, I am happy.

That is like that word "overlap"! Ha, I couldn't even begin to define that having a 264WM, 270WSM and 7WSM! I have exactly .020 difference in them and they are all basically the same darned powder capacity. I say build and shoot everything you want. You might regret not doing it someday. 308/35 Whelen's (my personal moniker for the 30-06) are great cartridges, but they are way cooler in the 338/358 variety. Scotty

Scotty, I have the same problem because I have a .270 Win, .280 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag and .30-06. There is not a dimes worth of difference between them, at least as far as hunting deer is concerned. Sectional density for sectional density, these four calibers are not any different from one another in the real world of medium game hunting. After personally killing a hundred or so deer, with all 4 calibers, I feel confident in saying these statements of equality as being axiomatic even.

 

[SJB358]

I guess the rifles they are chambered in makes a little appeal to me as well. I just like the M70's and seem drawn to them more than other rifles. Not cause of really any reason other than they just always seem to shoot well for me.

This 264WM is a fantastic cartridge. It is alot of fun to shoot since it recoils very little and I am getting kinda fond of those 6.5mm bullets at a fair rate of speed. Pretty excited to get it tuned up and shooting on the longer range. Scotty

 

[GF1]

I guess the rifles they are chambered in makes a little appeal to me as well. I just like the M70's and seem drawn to them more than other rifles. Not cause of really any reason other than they just always seem to shoot well for me.

This 264WM is a fantastic cartridge. It is alot of fun to shoot since it recoils very little and I am getting kinda fond of those 6.5mm bullets at a fair rate of speed. Pretty excited to get it tuned up and shooting on the longer range. Scotty

You'd better be careful, those .264s have a way of treating you nice - you'll find yourself shooting them TOO much. I'm saving the life of mine now, but it's hard not to shoot it just for fun.

 

[SJB358]

You'd better be careful, those .264s have a way of treating you nice - you'll find yourself shooting them TOO much. I'm saving the life of mine now, but it's hard not to shoot it just for fun.

It is almost impossible for me to shoot too much! :twisted:

 

[bbearhntr]

I am NOT an expert by any means but I found it interesting what the most recent Nosler Newsletter had to say about bullet choices,

"Sectional density is a mathematical value of a bullet's weight in relation to its diameter. The reason that sectional density is important to hunters is that it provides an indication of how well a bullet will penetrate. The higher a bullet's sectional density, the better its ability to overcome resistance when penetrating a solid medium. If velocity, diameter, and construction are equal, the bullet with the higher sectional density will penetrate more deeply. Sectional density is part of the reason heavier bullets are recommended for heavier game. In a given caliber, the heaviest bullets will have the highest sectional densities, offering the greatest penetration potential. Using sectional density to compare bullets only works well if the bullets are of the same or similar caliber. It is inaccurate to use sectional density to compare two bullets of greatly different calibers. Bullet construction must also be the same when comparing sectional densities. A varmint bullet with a high sectional density still won't perform on large game as well as a heavily constructed hunting bullet with a lower sectional density."

just my .02