356 win and imr4320

[beerbucksducks]

Hello everyone! I have been considering hand loading for my grandpas m94 .356 win for awhile now. Over the weekend I was able to score a couple decent deals on .358 Speer flat nose bullets. I have both 180 and 250 grain bullets. My question is... Is imr4320 an acceptable powder in this cartridge with the weight of bullets listed? It is the only powder I have on hand that I can find data for in this cartridge. This will be my first experience loading a lever gun (I've loaded bolt guns for 10 or so years) so any tips or input is appreciated. It was bought for a saddle gun but I hope to hunt deer and bear with it once I find a good load. So if anyone has some input or experience with 4320 and the 356 I would really appreciate it! Thanks!


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[SJB358]

BBD, that 356 Winchester is a great rifle.. It is really sorta rare in the states, but an awesome cartridge in it's own right.

Cartridge : .356 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .358, 180, Speer FP 2435
Useable Case Capaci: 46.125 grain H2O = 2.995 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.555 inch = 64.90 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : IMR 4320

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 88 36.80 1875 1405 22160 4349 69.9 1.417
-18.0 90 37.72 1922 1477 23578 4533 71.4 1.380
-16.0 92 38.64 1971 1552 25096 4717 72.9 1.344
-14.0 95 39.56 2020 1630 26722 4902 74.3 1.308
-12.0 97 40.48 2069 1712 28465 5086 75.8 1.273
-10.0 99 41.40 2120 1796 30335 5270 77.2 1.239
-08.0 101 42.32 2171 1884 32343 5453 78.6 1.206
-06.0 103 43.24 2223 1975 34507 5634 80.0 1.173
-04.0 106 44.16 2276 2070 36835 5813 81.4 1.141
-02.0 108 45.08 2329 2167 39349 5989 82.8 1.108
+00.0 110 46.00 2383 2269 42064 6162 84.1 1.076
+02.0 112 46.92 2437 2374 45002 6330 85.4 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 114 47.84 2492 2482 48191 6494 86.6 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 117 48.76 2548 2595 51657 6652 87.8 0.983 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 119 49.68 2604 2711 55432 6804 89.0 0.954 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 121 50.60 2661 2831 59557 6950 90.1 0.925 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 110 46.00 2546 2591 49846 6588 92.1 0.994 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 110 46.00 2195 1926 34998 5489 73.6 1.174


IMR4320 may be a little too slow to really do much with the 180's you have and the 250's, are spitzers, so I would caution you from running them in your lever gun.

4320 would work pretty decently with the 220 FP Speer though, if you can find any of them. If you cannot find any of them, I may know where to steer you to grab a box to try them out.

Cartridge : .356 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .358, 220, Speer FP 2439
Useable Case Capaci: 42.559 grain H2O = 2.763 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.555 inch = 64.90 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : IMR 4320

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 91 35.20 1809 1599 26268 4624 78.0 1.454
-18.0 93 36.08 1856 1682 28044 4802 79.4 1.414
-16.0 96 36.96 1903 1769 29947 4978 80.9 1.374
-14.0 98 37.84 1950 1858 31996 5153 82.3 1.336
-12.0 100 38.72 1999 1951 34200 5325 83.7 1.298
-10.0 103 39.60 2047 2047 36569 5494 85.0 1.261
-08.0 105 40.48 2096 2147 39138 5660 86.3 1.224
-06.0 107 41.36 2146 2250 41909 5821 87.5 1.187
-04.0 109 42.24 2196 2356 44908 5977 88.7 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 112 43.12 2246 2465 48165 6127 89.9 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 114 44.00 2297 2578 51694 6272 91.0 1.083 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 116 44.88 2349 2695 55559 6409 92.1 1.050 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 119 45.76 2401 2815 59770 6538 93.1 1.018 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 121 46.64 2453 2939 64383 6658 94.0 0.987 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 123 47.52 2505 3066 69452 6770 94.9 0.957 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 125 48.40 2559 3198 75039 6871 95.8 0.928 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 114 44.00 2434 2895 61485 6467 97.0 1.004 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 114 44.00 2130 2217 42836 5783 81.8 1.183


Good luck and post up results and some pictures of the M94.. They are always welcome around here.

 

[DrMike]

I love the .356 (I have three of them). I find them to be surprisingly accurate and exceptionally effective on game. I have taken mule deer, elk, black bear and grizzly with the .356. It has worked very well for me on every occasion. Scotty is correct in cautioning you about using spitzers in your loads. I have used the Kodiak 250 grain FN bullet with good effect, however. Generally, the 220 grain Speer is the best all around bullet. I note that I did some work some time back with IMR 4320, with a charge of 46 grains and a CCI 200 primer and the 220 grain Speer. Velocities were lower than with other powders, but still acceptable. My favourite powder is IMR 4895 or W 748, with either the 220 grain Speer or the 250 grain Kodiak or the 250 grain Hawk. At other times, I've used both H 335 or A 2015; more recently I've gravitated toward TAC, which gives slightly higher velocities, though not necessarily better accuracy. I've only recently begun experimenting with the Hornady 200 grain FTX, noting good accuracy; velocity, however, is not that much greater than what I would observe with the 200 grain Speer FN. You will love the way the Model 94 carries and the ease with which it finds your shoulder when you need to make a shot. The cartridge is an honest 250 yard cartridge for deer, and easily a 200 yard cartridge for bigger game.

 

[beerbucksducks]

Awesome. Thanks guys for the information! Both the 180s and the 250s I have are Speer FN bullets. I will have load some of both and see what kind of accuracy I can get. Accuracy is going to be my main concern, I don't have a crony so velocity won't really be in the cards. Not a big deal because the majority of my shots on deer are less than 100 yards. Thanks again for the help. If anybody else has experience with this combo I'd love to hear about it! Thanks.



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[DrMike]

Check your "250 grain" bullets. Either you are mistaken on the weight or on the manufacturer--Speer never made a 250 grain FN jacketed bullet. Pressure can build rather dramatically when the bearing surface is extended.

 

[beerbucksducks]

The bullets have been repackaged. So the package says 250 gr .358. And I thought I saw Speer at the gun show but am probably mistaken. I'll look into who the manufacturer is and weigh a bullet to make sure they are 250s. On another note I also have imr4064. Would this be any better than 4320? Thanks!


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[JD338]

Oh man, the Speer 220 gr FN would be an awesome bullet in the 356 Win.

JD338

 

[DrMike]

I have used IMR 4064, but you will be just fine with the 4320. IMR 4064 will work well, though I did not get the accuracy with any of my rifles that I got with 4320.

 

[beerbucksducks]

Well I weighed the bullets and they are 250s. So I'm not sure who the manufacturer is. I will put up a couple pictures of the bullets in case some one recognizes them. I appreciate the help, thank you!

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[DrMike]

They may be Winchester components as they did produce ammunition with a 250 grain bullet. Consequently, the Winchester Power Point was an excellent bullet in that cartridge. I never bought any components as they weren't commonly offered, but I did shoot quite a bit of their ammunition in years past as smaller stores were glad to divest themselves of the stock. I still have six or seven boxes of 250 grain ammunition. I can attest that it will bring down black bear, mule deer and elk with real authority. Since you don't know the manufacturer, I would advise using the data provided by Hodgdon in their older manuals, reducing it at least five percent and working up to ensure that it is safe. I know that many years ago I got a very nasty surprise when I worked up a load with Hornady 250 grain RN bullets. I then secured some Kodiak bullets and built some loads. I dropped back by 5%, but the first shot slapped my knuckles on the bench. I still have a large knot on my knuckle from that smack. It was because the bearing surface differed somewhat between the two bullets. I was certainly grateful that I knew enough to reduce the starting load and work up. Fortunately, I didn't bulge the chamber. FWIW, while the 220 will serve you well, I do like the 250 grain Kodiaks for bigger animals--especially those with sharp fangs and big claws.

 

[beerbucksducks]

Awesome! Thanks again for all the info DrMike. I'll try to report back once i do some load development!


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[SJB358]

Very cool. Those big FPs look awesome. 4320 should work real well in that application.

 

[FOTIS]

Oh man, the Speer 220 gr FN would be an awesome bullet in the 356 Win.

JD338

It is JD I drove one at 2300 fps lengthwise through a big hog in Texas. In and out!

 

[Oldtrader3]

I use IMR 4064 in my .338 Federal with 210 Partitions. Any of those medium burn powders should work with the .356 Win also.

 

[SJB358]

I don't have the Winchester 250 FP in my database, but I was able to use the Kodiak for the simulation with 4320.

Cartridge : .356 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .358, 250, AlaskaBulletWorks Kodiak PP SPFN
Useable Case Capaci: 42.048 grain H2O = 2.730 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.555 inch = 64.90 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : IMR 4320

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 88 33.55 1705 1614 26150 4623 81.2 1.549
-18.0 90 34.39 1748 1696 27862 4793 82.6 1.506
-16.0 92 35.23 1791 1781 29692 4961 83.9 1.465
-14.0 95 36.07 1835 1868 31654 5126 85.2 1.425
-12.0 97 36.91 1879 1959 33753 5289 86.5 1.385
-10.0 99 37.75 1923 2052 36008 5448 87.7 1.347
-08.0 101 38.58 1967 2148 38428 5603 88.9 1.308
-06.0 103 39.42 2012 2248 41033 5754 90.0 1.270
-04.0 106 40.26 2057 2349 43835 5899 91.1 1.234
-02.0 108 41.10 2103 2454 46857 6039 92.1 1.198 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 110 41.94 2148 2562 50124 6172 93.1 1.163 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 112 42.78 2194 2673 53658 6298 94.0 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 114 43.62 2240 2786 57490 6417 94.9 1.097 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 117 44.46 2287 2903 61653 6528 95.7 1.066 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 119 45.30 2333 3022 66189 6630 96.4 1.035 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 121 46.13 2380 3145 71142 6722 97.1 1.005 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 110 41.94 2268 2856 59581 6285 98.2 1.081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 110 41.94 1999 2218 41549 5762 84.5 1.268


Just work up from a few grains below.

If there are anymore of the 250 FP's available, I'd be interested as well.. I have a couple 35's to try em in.

 

[DrMike]

I have used both the Hawk and the Kodiak 250 grain FN, and I still use the 250 grain Kodiak FN. I never saw the accuracy I anticipated with the 180 grain Speer FN, but the 220 grain Speer FN has consistently given me accuracy and decent velocities in four separate Model 94s (I gifted a friend with one). The Hawk 250 has proved inconsistent in terms of accuracy, so I no longer shoot them.

 

[beerbucksducks]

Perfect! I will have to put some rounds together when I get some time. The guy at the gun show did have a couple more bags of these bullets I believe. After doing a little research I think they are the Winchester pp. If I can't get them to shoot or decide to run the 180s instead I will let you know and we can work out a deal on the remaining bullets. I will also check the gunshow again next month and see if I can pick up another bag or 2!


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