38-55 bullet

[Tooter]

Shot my vintage 1895 Model 94 Win. in 38-55 cal. the other day and had a blast but turned up a problem. Using 255 gr. Win. factory loads, I shot from sitting at 40 yards to begin sight-in. After a couple of adjustments, I moved back to the bench at 80 yds. All bullets at this range went through the target sideways when they did hit the target. The shots at 40 yds. were round holes, so out beyond this range stabilization is obviously an issue. Slugging the barrel turned up a bore dia. of just over .381 in. No wonder the .377 factory bullets didn't shoot. Any ideas where I could come up with a commercial cast .382 bullet or a jacketed .381 bullet to use on close-range whitetails?

 

[SJB358]

Get some cast bullets from Beartooth sized for your bore! I would bet they would bring a smile to your face and they aren't too badly priced either. Should be a hammer with a big WFN! Scotty

 

[Tooter]

Thanks for the reply Scotty. Their website lists .380 as the largest size. As a gas check design, I doubt it would slug up enough on firing to engage the rifling. I e-mailed Mt. Baldy Bullets to see if they produced a bullet over .380, but haven't heard back yet.

 

[BK]

Get some cast bullets from Beartooth sized for your bore! I would bet they would bring a smile to your face and they aren't too badly priced either. Should be a hammer with a big WFN! Scotty

Will WFNs feed properly? I would be worried with that big ol' fat meplat getting hung up when feeding from the magazine.

 

[onesonek]

Man this can be difficult,,,, even if you find a commercial cast thats the correct size, then will it be alloy'd the way you, and more so the way your rifle and application wants and needs? Trouble is a good share of commercial cast are on the hard side to reduce damage during shipping. This, your rifle may not like.
How much do you shoot ths rig? I have some idea's, but there will be some cost. And so many rounds per year may not warrent it. In the long run however, it would be less costly than buying commercial cast. But no more, than say a 4-5 box purchase of loaded ammo. Feel free to PM me for a phone number if you care to discuss some thoughts.

 

[SJB358]

Get some cast bullets from Beartooth sized for your bore! I would bet they would bring a smile to your face and they aren't too badly priced either. Should be a hammer with a big WFN! Scotty

Will WFNs feed properly? I would be worried with that big ol' fat meplat getting hung up when feeding from the magazine.

I don't have any issues with the 425 WFN functioning through the Marlin. I can't imagine it would be too bad. Don't know though. Nothing like giving it a whirl.

I would contact Marshall Stanton at Beartooth though. I imagine him along with Dave will answer a bunch of your questions. Scotty

 

[Tooter]

Enjoying the responses. Mt. Baldy replied that they could size to .382. I wonder though if after seating a bullet this big, it would cause chambering problems with the increased neck diameter. I can't think it would, as this 116 year old rifle has looser dimensions in its bore than standard. I appreciate your offer Dave, but this is continuing my quest to grab a different classic rifle out of the safe each year and collect some venison with it, so some sighting in rounds and a couple to hunt with is all I'll ever need as I don't plan to shoot this rifle a whole lot and don't want to tie up more than the cost of a box of bullets. I'll contact Marshall and see what he suggests. Thanks again guys.

 

[SJB358]

I would think someone should be able to take care of you and if you have a little time, Marshall from Beartooth should be able to get something for you to hunt with. Scotty

 

[onesonek]

You're welcome,,,
Also, you could slug the neck ahead of the throat, just to see where you are at with that. You really only need .0005" clearence there, for good boolit release.

Or some just measure the fired case mouth, and subtract .001" from that for final boolit size.

 

[orchemo]

I have a Marlin 375 win that I shoot cast bullets through at about 1500 fps. Great fun. I have good luck with Carolina Casters. Google them, they were helpful to me when I starting shooting cast bullets

 

[Tooter]

I did some measuring last night. Fired necks mic out at .391. Dave, is it possible that you meant deduct .010 to get bullet dia. instead of .001? I also hammered in the slug that I used to get bore dia. (.382) into a fired case. The neck dia. was then measured at .396, but this wouldn't chamber in my rifle. So do you all think I can order .381 bullets and be OK? Also, I'm probably looking at getting plain base RNFP at a BHN of 15 so they might obdurate upon firing to engage the rifling better. Or, would your experience suggest a gas check design and do you think a BHN of 15 is hard enough to use hunting whitetail?

 

[SJB358]

To find out the true diameter, I would look at using a soft split shot style lead sinker you can push through the rifling in order to measure the diameter. Using a small wooden dowel should drive it through the rifling easy enough, especially if you clean and lube the barrel up good. I did it with the 45-70 and it was fairly easy and gave me some good readings, rather than trying to guess at what it was.

Not sure about the hardness levels. I am sure Dave can weigh in with that. I would bet even a soft lead slug at 38-55 speeds should hold up well. Round balls for muzzleloaders are pretty soft too, and they do just fine on deer. Scotty

 

[onesonek]

I did some measuring last night. Fired necks mic out at .391. Dave, is it possible that you meant deduct .010 to get bullet dia. instead of .001? I also hammered in the slug that I used to get bore dia. (.382) into a fired case. The neck dia. was then measured at .396, but this wouldn't chamber in my rifle. So do you all think I can order .381 bullets and be OK? Also, I'm probably looking at getting plain base RNFP at a BHN of 15 so they might obdurate upon firing to engage the rifling better. Or, would your experience suggest a gas check design and do you think a BHN of 15 is hard enough to use hunting whitetail?

That's pretty roomy in the neck, but not suprising. And no, I did mean .001" under fired neck dimensions.
Anyhow being it is what it is, scrap that idea. I would order sized .002-.003" over groove diameter. If your are measuring .381", I would order .383". They will swage down to groove easy enough upon firing, but anywhere near .008-.010" neck is a lot, and can go the other way with accuracy.
With cast, fit is king, hardness has more to do with terminal performance and pressure. But all are kind of tied together,,,,lots of variables. In this, I would go with gaschecked. You are talking in velocity/pressure ranges that are pushing limits of a plain base. While there are ways around most any general rule of thumb, it may take more shooting/experimentation to find the load. That is the beauty of casting your own,,you can make adjustments to the rifle's and your liking. When you mentioned BHN 15, it sounds like they will be cast of Lyman #2 alloy. The bhn 15 will obturate at around 21,300 psi, so you shouldn't have issues there being too hard in that respect of obturation. It may well work in a plain base, but a gascheck may be needed, so again, I would just go that route to start with. I gascheck all rifle loads, just figuring to save headaches later. Some you can push, but I just go GC's beyond 1500 fps, some say 1800 is the boundry. With cast, Rule #1 is, Fit is King, rule #2, all other rules are guidelines, not rules. A gascheck will allow the use of a bit softer alloy in most situations
Then too, things change in my mind, when we are talking sub 40 caliber.
Personally, I would cast using a softer alloy to initiate expansion a little better, then go harder if it seemed necessary. Or I would, (for lack of better terminology) "trick out" a softer alloy that would handle the pressure. (many ways to skin a cat, refer to rule #2). With harder, you may not see much upset once it drops below 14-1500 fps. If shooting at that extended range on game,,,,put it on bone. With bigger bore's, one can get by with less expansion, if not none at all.

Now one of my original thoughts was, for you to get a mould, and I could cast them for you. That way you/we can make adjustments in alloy if needed. You can go ahead and try the commercially cast boolits, and see what happens, but I'll leave that offer open. Beyond the intial mould cost, would be the lead cost, GC's and shipping. Just a quick guess, being 1/2 of what commerical cast would be. Just offering, cuz I might find need for a lighter weight than I'm using.
And in that respect, if my current mould threw bigger, I would send you some. But my one .375 mould is set up to throw .3765" with WW alloy,,,much too small for your needs. And I just don't think I can "beagle" it .005" either, or I would try.

 

[SJB358]

Shoot Dave, I didn't know you were offering to cast! Man, you might need to put up an ad! Scotty

 

[onesonek]

:lol:
Well,,,,,,,,,,,, it isn't my intention to get into commercial casting. Just thinking if he didnt want to get into to it full bore so to speak, I might be able to help him out. I really don't need another or lighter .375 myself, but at the same time, lighter wouldn't hurt in some situations.
But along the same thoughts Scotty, I cast for the .45-70 (350 to 470 gr.), .454, .45 Colt (320gr / 360gr.) also. So if you would like some to try out, give me a call. I know you were thinking about cast some time back, we just never got around to discussing that the other day

 

[Tooter]

Dave, you are being extremely generous with your offer, and I appreciate it. I think I've decided to get some gas checked .381 BHN 15 bullets and see what happens. Deer season starts tomorrow, so this project may get delayed for a couple of weeks. I'm going to use my Mod. 94 in 375 Win., as I already have it ready to go. I may take you up on your offer at a later time. Thanks again.

 

[onesonek]

Anytime Tooter,,,,,,,just double checking on your stated size just now. General consensus is, you order your cast .001-002" over your groove diameter. .001" and smaller. will 90% of the time create problems for you. I know .003" isn't any too big,,,just needs to chamber is all. And according to your neck dimensions, that shouldn't be an issue.
Good Luck on the hunt!