38 Special, FBI Load +P

HodgemanAK · Nov 25, 2020

Does anyone have a replica load for the now-defunct "FBI Load" that was pretty much standard in the 70s and 80s? I've got a friend looking to resupply his dwindling stock of this load that shoots point of aim in his fixed sight revolvers.

Experiments with modern defensive loads just don't shoot to the same point- frequently high or low at relatively close ranges.

HAWKEYESATX · Nov 25, 2020

Here are some loads I use. The Titegroup and CFE Pistol are regular pressure. They are quite speedy.

My Unique +P load is 5.2 grs under the LSWCHP 158 gr bullet.

Hawk

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1Shot · Nov 26, 2020

Now be advised that this is a +P MAX load and should only be used in +P rated pistols and really is NOT a go out and shoot a box every day or two load because it will shake a pistol loose. It duplicates the true "FBI" load. 5.4 grs Unique and use a soft SWAGED SWCHP like the Speer or Hornady. Use the data at your own risk and work up to it in your particular pistol.

Most fixed sight 38 Special pistols are set for standard velocity 158 gr ammo.

I have a Taurus air weight +P 38 Special snub nose that I carry a lot because I can really conceal it carried appendix style with a soft tuck holster with just a tucked in shirt.
I have tuned a +P load that does (850 fps average chrnoed) and consist of 5.2 grs Unique and the 135 gr Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel bullet.

For my wife's S&W Air Weight +P it likes 6.0 grs Unique with the 125 gr Speer Gold Dot and runs right at 900 fps.

Both loads are tuned to the fixed sights and are powerful self defense loads.

As far a getting a load to shoot to the sights on fixed sight pistols you can tune most any load if elevation is the only problem. Most people think the opposite of this. If it is shooting too high up the powder charge if it is shooting too low cut the powder charge. If the bullet is hitting high it is leaving the barrel late. The muzzle has risen up too much before the bullet leaves the barrel and strikes high. If the bullet is hitting low it is too fast. It is leaving the barrel before the muzzle has risen to where the sights are set.

Guy Miner · Nov 27, 2020

I wonder if this offering from Buffalo Bore would provide the desired ballistics?

158 grain LSWC HP, 850 fps

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=110

In case he wanted some factory ammo.

Guy

1Shot · Nov 27, 2020

I have been hand loading for about 42 years and have loaded all sorts of 38 Special loads. I can tell you that there is not a STANDARD PRESSURE load with a 158 gr bullet that will do 850 fps from a 2" barrel. I would like to know what Buffaobore classifies as the length of their short barrel. It is hard to actually get 850 fps from a 4" barrel with Standard Pressure loads.

HAWKEYESATX · Nov 27, 2020

I think they could be using the CFE Pistol powder. I think that would duplicate 850 fps out of a 4 in barrel quite well.

Hawk

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Guy Miner · Nov 27, 2020

1Shot":3h55hycz said:
I have been hand loading for about 42 years and have loaded all sorts of 38 Special loads. I can tell you that there is not a STANDARD PRESSURE load with a 158 gr bullet that will do 850 fps from a 2" barrel. I would like to know what Buffaobore classifies as the length of their short barrel. It is hard to actually get 850 fps from a 4" barrel with Standard Pressure loads.

Worth noting though, that if you take a look at their page, they show you the firearms and barrel lengths they use for testing. It's all right there. The italicized info below is a quote from that page:

Item 20C utilizes the same 158gr. with a very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet, we load in our +P 38 SPL ammo. It is designed to expand and then penetrate quite deep. (Approx. 14 inches in human tissue) This bullet is gas checked and will NOT lead your barrel. Note the below velocities that I recorded out of my personal revolvers- NOT TEST BARRELS!

➤ 854 fps (256 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch barrel
➤ 871 fps (266 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch barrel
➤ 930 fps (303 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch barrel
➤ 979 fps (336 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel

It's expensive stuff. But, maybe I'll buy a box of it and give it a try from my 357 Magnum Model 19.

I don't shoot much factory ammo through it.

I'll admit - I don't know how they measure pressure data.

I think I'll ask.

Regards, Guy

1Shot · Nov 28, 2020

It may be doable with some of the new powders that I have not used or to some "special" blend proprietary powder but as to "standard pressure" I also would like to know how it was measured. To keep themselves from getting sued they would have to pressure test their ammo some how. Because you know someone would not use common since and shoot it in something like the pistol that my Grand Father had that his brother carried in WWI. It looked like a S&W military and police but was made in Spain.

HodgemanAK · Nov 28, 2020

In all fairness to Buffalo Bore, they do say they developed their standard pressure .38 loads using non-canister powders. Not sure how they measure the pressure but past experience with BB would make me very leery of sticking it in something old and fragile regardless of what it says on the box.

Their +P version 158 LSWC-HP does look very much like the old "FBI load".

jamestap · Dec 12, 2020

The FBI always gets the credit, but Winchester actually developed the load for the St. Louis PD. The Winchester product code was “W38SPD”.

5.4 grains of Unique with one of the swaged 158 grain LSWCHP has long been considered a duplication load.
I’ve gotten good zip from 6 grains of Power Pistol.
IIRC, I read where someone broke down some BB rounds and determined it was HS6. I’ve 7.0 grains of HS6 suggested as a dupe load, but use at your own risk.

1Shot · Dec 13, 2020

Yes you could about add any city or agency name to "load" and it would be the same thing. Winchester did produce this load. Who knows they probably got their idea for it from Elmer Keith with some of his heavy loaded 38 Special loads which evolved into 357 Mag. I don't know about him getting credit for the 357 mag development but he sure did for the 44 mag with his heavy 44 special loads and pushing for what we know is the 44 mag. From reading his books he was shooting some really stout 38 Special loads in S&W 38/44 big frame pistols. Six Guns and Hell I Was There are two really good reads of Elmer's exploits.

HAWKEYESATX · Dec 13, 2020

I believe that Elmer gets partial credit, along with Phil Sharpe, and Douglas Wesson for coming up with the .357, as well.
I know Elmer had his N frame S&W using high pressure loads with a .38 Special cylinder. Hence that's where the designation .38/44 came from.
Elmer sure liked to take things to edge, in those times. He actually blew up a few revolvers doing his high pressure experiments.
But, if he hadn't, we wouldn't have the . 38 Special +P, or the .357 Mag around today, nor for that fact, the .44 Magnum, either.

Hawk

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Guy Miner · Dec 13, 2020

Well, I bought a box of that Buffalo Bore 38, 158 gr .38 Special ammo.

And a box of their 180 grain 357 magnum ammo.

I'll get out to the range with the chronograph sometime soon and see how they do. I think my 2.5" S&W Model 19 is going to be a bucking bronco with the 180 gr 357 mag stuff!

I'll also try it from a 4 5/8" 357 mag Ruger Blackhawk.

Guy

1Shot · Dec 13, 2020

Wear some good gloves. I have a Rossi snub nose 357 mag and with full house 158s it is a hand full so to speak. First time I ever shot it was with some factory CCI lawman 125 gr HP and that stuff was HOT. 50 rounds and my hand was numb. By the way with that stuff the pistol shot about 4" low 2" left at 5 yards and a foot low and about 8" left at 25 yards. At 25 yards I had to aim at the top of the right shoulder on a human size target to hit in the 10 ring in the center. With full house 158s it shoots right to the fixed sights. I shoot full house 180 XTP in my 10" T/C Contender and it is a pussy cat. In a 6" Taurus you can tell it is not 158s but not much more recoil.

Guy Miner · Dec 14, 2020

It's funny, I was literally afraid of the 357 I bought back in the 1970's - my first handgun. I thought it was going to hurt my hands & wrists, maybe fly from my grip, that the blast would deafen me and I'd go blind from the flash... :mrgreen:

I got over that stuff pretty fast...

Guy

1Shot · Dec 15, 2020

Guy Miner":1l0fifug said:
It's funny, I was literally afraid of the 357 I bought back in the 1970's - my first handgun. I thought it was going to hurt my hands & wrists, maybe fly from my grip, that the blast would deafen me and I'd go blind from the flash... :mrgreen:

I got over that stuff pretty fast...

Guy

:lol: It was my first 44 mag for me. I had wore out a 6" Dan Wesson 357 mag and that took a lot of shooting mostly with full house loads but I could shoot a walnut off a post at 50 yards easy off hand with it. I was young and had good eyes and steady hands. The only 44 mag I had ever shot was a T/C Contender that my friend got with the octagon barrel with open sights. That thing was light and the old plow handle grips that came on it was a nightmare for handling recoil. I shot it one time and it like to have paralyzed my hand and arm to my shoulder. When I got my 7 1/2" Ruger Black Hawk 44 mag the first few shots I hit nothing but the ground out in front of me I was jerking the trigger so hard in anticipation of the recoil. LOL I later put some Packmire grips on the pistol and it really became comfortable to shoot.

HAWKEYESATX · Dec 15, 2020

Guy,

Not unlike you, when I got a chance to shoot a .357 magnum a friend had, I had heard horror stories about the kick, and the ear splitting KA-BOOM that it made.
I don't remember the model number of the Stainless Steel S&W 4" barreled, target grips he had, but when I got ahold of it, and before I touched off the first 158 gr factory .357 load, I can remember I had closed my eyes and kept them tightly shut, and slowly squeezed the trigger , and I felt the revolver buck, and boom, but my hand wasn't numb or fell off! LOL
That made me want to try the bigger magnums.
I had tried a .41 mag, and then a .44 mag.
Eventually I bought a Ruger Redhawk .41 Mag, and loved it. Then I bought a S&W M29 .44 Mag, and liked it, but with full house 240 gr loads, it left the web and part of my palm numb after a few shots.
So now, I settled on a Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Mag, and love to shoot that thing.
Now, back to the .38 Special +P, to me it's strictly patty cake recoil compared to the big mags.
I have to say, though, that when the +P 158 gr loads are shot, I wouldn't want to get hit by one. It hits far more bigger than paper ballistics state.
In the +P range, the 158's can be pushed close to 400 ft.-lbs of muzzle energy. That's no pipsqueak.
There's a +P hand load with 140 gr bullets that gets 466 ft.-lbs of muzzle energy. It uses the old IMR 4227 powder. In a hollow point, I definitely would not want to get hit with that load! Sheesh!
And I fully believe that the .38 Special can outperform the uber wonderful 9x19mm any day of the week.

Hawk

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PJGunner · Dec 15, 2020

HAWKEYESATX":aq2w1906 said:
I believe that Elmer gets partial credit, along with Phil Sharpe, and Douglas Wesson for coming up with the .357, as well.
I know Elmer had his N frame S&W using high pressure loads with a .38 Special cylinder. Hence that's where the designation .38/44 came from.
Elmer sure liked to take things to edge, in those times. He actually blew up a few revolvers doing his high pressure experiments.
But, if he hadn't, we wouldn't have the . 38 Special +P, or the .357 Mag around today, nor for that fact, the .44 Magnum, either.

Hawk

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Quite correct. S&W made two versions of the 38/44. One was the heavy Duty with had the usual hog wallow trough for a rear sight and the other was the Outdoorsman with nice adjustable sights. I had the latter many years ago and used it to kill a Black Bear during the 1959 Fourth of July weekend. Later sold it so I could party. Been kicking myself ever since. A few years ago while cruising a gun show i spotted another and the price was right. It came home with me. I've only been using it with light wadcutter loads but the one I had earlier ran a 158 gr. gas checked semiwadcutter bullet over something like 11.0 or 12.0 gr. of 2400. A very potent load in the Outdoorsman. I probably will not shoot hot loads in this one as I have a .357 Mag. if I want to run something in that power range. Mine is early enough that there is no model number and it has that old very smooth long action that S&W used to use in all their revolvers. I prefer it to the later "short" action.
Paul B.