6.5 Creedmoor, VV N160 load development

[Jimbeaux82]

Guys,

I recently bought a Savage BA 10 Stealth in 6.5 Creedmoor and have started my load development. I know that H4350 is "THE" powder for 6.5 CM but finding it is another problem. I happen to have a very good supply of VV N160 so decided to try and work up a good load using it and see what happens. There is not a lot of data floating around for this powder but VV lists some data for 139 gr and 140 gr bullets and I had previously requested a QL run for this using 140 gr Nosler RDF bullets, so I have had some good guidelines to start with. I am in a long range shooting club where we are working our way to 1000 yards. This load will be for target shooting only. I have been shooting a nice 308 Tikka T3 Tac and done very well out to 600 yards, but trying it at 800 yds on a windy day was a humbling experience. Hence the purchase of the 6.5 CM, hoping to significantly better the wind bucking ability at 1000 yds. I am using my local range for load development which only has a 100 yd range. My target velocity is 2700 fps. Hornady 140 gr ELDM's shoot at 2695 fps in my rifle. Using a Hornady comparator, Bullet to lands length touching is 2.876", which happens to also be max mag length. Book length is 2.825" so I started with this. Using CCI BR-2 primers and new Hornady cases. Using 3 shot groups. So far am seeing some promising results as follows:

41.0 gr 2512 fps .775"
42.0 gr 2565 fps .475"
43.0 gr 2607 fps .960"
44.0 gr 2680 fps 1.725"
44.5 gr 2695 fps 2.265"
45.0 gr 2725 fps .740"

As you can see, 42.0 gave the best single group but velocity was low. 45.0 gr gave the velocity I wanted with a decent group. 44.0 and 44.5 were 2 touching , 1 out (way out!). Conventional reloading wisdom says that I have room to seat out longer and probably tighten up the groups. So I loaded 44.0, 44.5 and 45.0 gr at 2.856" (touching minus .020"). All groups were in the 1.5" range including the 45.0 gr load. So now I intend to go the other direction, loading the 45.0 gr load at 2.805 and 2.825" to hopefully repeat my earlier group of .740" and see if deeper seating helps tighten up the groups. Will hopefully shoot those loads today or tomorrow.

I would like some advice from our board:

1) since I am using a 100 yd range only, is there any value in trying the OCW method? Most sources say shoot OCW at 200-300 yds.
2) for target use at 800-1000 yds only, assuming no other improvements are found, would you opt for the tighter groups at 42.0 gr (2565 fps, .475") or the greater velocity at 45.0 grs (2725 fps, .740") ?
3) any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Jimbeaux

 

[Jimbeaux82]

Come on guys, 29 views and no comments?

Dr Mike, Fotis, Scotty, Guy, Dr Vette, surely one of you have some comments or suggestions

Jimbeaux

 

[SJB358]

I like the looks of your 45 grain load. Accuracy seems pretty danged good and I'd think you could tune it in via seating depth if needed to really tune it up.

Sorry, I have used too much of the VV powders so I'm kinda useless there.

 

[Nimrod84]

Okay - I'll bite.

1. Yes - 100 yards is very workable with the OCW system. To quote: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace. ... 4529811360 "I prefer to shoot the initial stage of OCW testing at 100 yards. This will factor out most of the wind effect. In the overwhelming majority of cases, 100 yard data is easily interpreted, and more easily obtained. Many shooters don't have immediate access to 300 yard ranges. From my own experience, I can tell you that if you properly interpret your 100 yard targets you'll have an excellent 300 yard (and even farther) load recipe. Almost every load I've developed at 100 yards has printed MOA or better at 300 yards."

2. Speed, but I don't know your elevation, rate of twist, temperature or other particulars. The concern is that the lower velocity might be moving you into the transonic range at 800-1000 yards. The transonic zone I think starts around 1300 fps and I'm getting 1295 fps at 900 yards with a 500 ft elevation with a 2550 fps starting velocity. You can put your specific inputs into a ballistic calculator and see - http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/4dof.

Edited to include the following - If the links are inappropriate, please let me know and I will delete and rewrite the message.

 

[Jimbeaux82]

Nimrod ans Scotty,

Thanks for the input. I am at 190 ft elevation.

Jimbeaux

 

[DrMike]

I like VihtaVuori powders, and I use quite a bit of this particular brand. Generally speaking, I'm in line with Scotty in suggesting that your 45.0 grain charge can be used to obtain what you are looking for. I'm inclined to suggest that you adjust seating depth, though I have had no opportunity to work with the ELDX or ELDM bullets. I do wonder how you selected N160. Perhaps a double-base powder such as N560, if available, would give you what you are looking for.

 

[Nimrod84]

DrMike of course gives excellent advice.

FYI - I'm showing 1430 fps at 1000 yards, with a 2700 fps starting velocity, 190 ft elevation above sea level, 70 degrees F and 60% humidity. That velocity, in my opinion, is worth trying especially as you have a "good supply of (VV N160)"; it might be a great 800 - 900 yard load and it could potentially go further. However, I would keep an open mind and not be overly beholden to it especially for 1000 yard shooting; as environmental conditions might shift it into the transonic range.

Edit - One thought I had is that the 45 grain charge looks like it might be on the lower end of an accuracy node. It gives similar accuracy to your 41 grain and 42 grains is a node. I am not recommending going past 45 grains of N160!

If you will be shooting in hotter weather, I would try your existing 45 grain load and see if you get much in the way of increased velocity and if your groups change. I would also play with seating depth per the above recommendations; and possibly run both loads over a year and see if one load performs better in the summer or winter.

Shoot straight and have fun!

 

[Dwh7271]

I'm with the others. Play with seating depth a little. I'd also work the 45 gr a little. Maybe some a little closer to the lands and some a quarter turn on the seating die shorter.
I don't have QL up right now but was 45 near the max shown? Reason is I agree that may be the bottom of a node. Speed wise there's usually one in the 6.5s a hair above what you show for speed at 45 gr. I'm not advocating going above 45 unless you have room and no pressure there. Your rifle and only you know what it's telling you. :grin:

 

[DrMike]

I'm with the others. Play with seating depth a little. I'd also work the 45 gr a little. Maybe some a little closer to the lands and some a quarter turn on the seating die shorter.
I don't have QL up right now but was 45 near the max shown? Reason is I agree that may be the bottom of a node. Speed wise there's usually one in the 6.5s a hair above what you show for speed at 45 gr. I'm not advocating going above 45 unless you have room and no pressure there. Your rifle and only you know what it's telling you. :grin:

Dewey,

QL shows there is room to build with that particular powder/projectile combination.

Cartridge          : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet             : .264, 140, Hornady ELD-M 26331 G7
Useable Case Capaci: 47.039 grain H2O = 3.054 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Vihtavuori N160

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   89    36.80   2219    1531   31627   7548     87.6    1.611
-18.0   91    37.72   2274    1608   33788   7794     88.9    1.567
-16.0   93    38.64   2330    1687   36101   8035     90.1    1.524
-14.0   95    39.56   2386    1769   38577   8268     91.3    1.478
-12.0   97    40.48   2441    1853   41233   8494     92.4    1.433
-10.0  100    41.40   2497    1939   44081   8712     93.4    1.389
-08.0  102    42.32   2554    2027   47140   8919     94.4    1.347
-06.0  104    43.24   2610    2117   50427   9117     95.3    1.307
-04.0  106    44.16   2666    2210   53946   9303     96.1    1.268  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  108    45.08   2723    2304   57710   9477     96.8    1.230  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  111    46.00   2779    2401   61760   9638     97.5    1.194  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  113    46.92   2835    2499   66126   9785     98.1    1.159  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  115    47.84   2892    2599   70839   9917     98.6    1.125  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  117    48.76   2948    2702   75935  10033     99.1    1.092  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  120    49.68   3004    2806   81456  10132     99.4    1.060  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  122    50.60   3061    2912   87450  10214     99.7    1.029  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    111    46.00   2904    2622   73288   9514     99.9    1.112  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    111    46.00   2613    2122   50615   9310     91.3    1.300

 

[Jimbeaux82]

Thanks. In Louisiana I am not at all worried about cold weather changes and try to work up my loads in the summer heat of 80-100 deg. Right now it is 80-90 deg each day. Today I reshot my 45.0 gr load at 2.826" and got .860" group, basically the same as the .740" group I got earlier. However, today I got the smallest hint of ejector marks on the brass that were not there the first time, so I am very cautious about going to 46 grains even though Quickload shows that I might be able to. However, QL is spot on as I got 2725 fps with my 45.0 gr load so 45.5 or 46.0 might be safe. Otherwise the primers look exactly like the Hornady ELDM's that I have shot. I also shot a 2.806" , 45 gr load but it measured 1.186". I am going to try the Berger seating depth method. I basically have already shot the .010" off lands load and the .050" off lands load, so this afternoon I loaded up samples of .090" and .130" off lands with 45.0 grs to see how they will group.

Dr Mike - the only reason I am trying to work with VV N160 is that I have 12 lbs of it on hand and there is some VV data for 6.5 CM and 139/140 gr bullets. for 1000 yd shooting I am hoping to work out a load that goes into .5 MOA but I do realize that N160 may not get me there. H4350 is virtually unattainable but I do have some IMR 4350 that I might try as it is more readily available.

 

[DrMike]

Dr Mike - the only reason I am trying to work with VV N160 is that I have 12 lbs of it on hand and there is some VV data for 6.5 CM and 139/140 gr bullets. for 1000 yd shooting I am hoping to work out a load that goes into .5 MOA but I do realize that N160 may not get me there. H4350 is virtually unattainable but I do have some IMR 4350 that I might try as it is more readily available.

And that is a perfectly legitimate reason to stay with that powder. For other powders, you might consider some of these:

Cartridge          : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet             : .264, 140, Hornady ELD-M 26331 G7
Useable Case Capaci: 47.039 grain H2O = 3.054 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62250 psi, or 429 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

7 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26                 106.6     49.7     3.22    2978   100.0    62250   11085   1.169  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP                          107.3     48.5     3.14    2946    99.7    62250   11191   1.171  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                    108.9     48.3     3.13    2930    97.5    62250   11371   1.170  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                    109.2     50.4     3.26    2921    96.1    62250   11405   1.175  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                 109.2     47.9     3.10    2912    98.9    62250   10979   1.176  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                       107.1     47.7     3.09    2906    97.8    62250   10958   1.165  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17                  96.2     43.8     2.84    2889   100.0    62250    9839   1.177  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                     108.5     51.2     3.32    2883    99.2    62250   10461   1.169  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16                 102.9     43.5     2.82    2865   100.0    62250    9698   1.189  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                 105.5     45.8     2.97    2862    98.8    62250   10423   1.179  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                     101.0     45.2     2.93    2861    99.9    62250   10124   1.185  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        95.3     43.7     2.83    2855    99.6    62250   10129   1.188  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      95.3     43.7     2.83    2855    99.6    62250   10129   1.188  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                     110.0     47.2     3.06    2851    98.3    58036   10839   1.213  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                     97.6     43.2     2.80    2840   100.0    62250    9804   1.198  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP                          100.5     43.1     2.79    2839   100.0    62250    9671   1.193  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23                 110.0     46.7     3.02    2838   100.0    57951    9872   1.217  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                       99.7     43.2     2.80    2836   100.0    62250    9631   1.209  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                           99.9     44.8     2.90    2835    98.5    62250   10126   1.182  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                   106.5     46.7     3.03    2830    97.0    62250   10210   1.179  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           105.5     43.8     2.84    2822   100.0    62250    9456   1.202  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                      109.1     47.3     3.07    2819    99.9    62250    9699   1.211  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                           110.0     46.4     3.00    2814    96.6    56015   10702   1.222  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             103.8     47.5     3.08    2813    98.6    62250    9875   1.185  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                      110.0     46.4     3.00    2808    96.7    60624   10146   1.192  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                103.2     43.3     2.80    2799   100.0    62250    8886   1.194  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron                   107.6     45.4     2.94    2794    97.2    62250    9890   1.187  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                        92.6     41.0     2.66    2793   100.0    62250    9319   1.205  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old                       93.0     40.8     2.64    2784   100.0    62250    8961   1.216  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                    110.0     47.2     3.06    2779    98.8    59881    9644   1.210  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        94.4     41.5     2.69    2774    99.3    62250    9420   1.202  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                    110.0     45.7     2.96    2762    97.3    60534    9592   1.204  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064                       92.6     39.3     2.54    2739   100.0    62250    8384   1.239  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron                   110.0     47.2     3.06    2666    88.5    58964    9157   1.225  ! Near Maximum !

 

[Dwh7271]

Thanks Dr!
Jim, I'd try one close to, but not in the lands just for grins

 

[Jimbeaux82]

Dwh,

I tried at .020" off lands and it was not good. That was the 2.856" load referenced. You think I should try one at .010" off the lands?

Jimbeaux

 

[DrMike]

With the ELDM (and the ELDX), I would be inclined to move toward the lands, treating the bullet much as I would a Berger or a Ballistic Tip. I believe you are on solid ground moving to 0.010 inches off the lands. You are likely to see the accuracy improve.

 

[Dwh7271]

With the ELDM (and the ELDX), I would be inclined to move toward the lands, treating the bullet much as I would a Berger or a Ballistic Tip. I believe you are on solid ground moving to 0.010 inches off the lands. You are likely to see the accuracy improve.

+1
Yessir.

 

[TackDriver284]

Dwh,

I tried at .020" off lands and it was not good. That was the 2.856" load referenced. You think I should try one at .010" off the lands?

Jimbeaux

I have been printing close to half inch groups with the 178 ELD-M in the .308 at 200 yards the other day with the bullet .005 into the lands. When I tested several 3 round groups with seating depths of .005 into lands plus .010, .025, .040 off the lands and the 3 round groups that was off the lands did not shoot as well as the group that was .005" into the lands. If shooting into the lands, reduce loads if its at maximum in case of a pressure spike.

 

[Jimbeaux82]

ill have to give this a try.

thanks