8mm-06 VS .35 Whelen

[taylorce1]

I decided to go out and see what kind of groups I could shoot with my 8mm-06. The rifle is showing some real potential and I was using 175 grain Sierra's and H4895. Largest group was 3" and the smallest was 1.6" for 5 shots at 100 yards with the max book load of 52.5 grains being the smallest group. I don't have a chronograph but the book list this load at 2900 fps.

I shot as well my .35 Whelen and was using 180gr Speer flat points again using H4895. This time my load was 56gr of H4895 which is a middle load by the Speer manual. This load should put me around 2650 fps by book load.

My question is why the big difference in FPS vs Grains out of these two different rifles. I was a little worried when I saw the load data for each rifle as these bullets only being within 5 grains of each other had almost a 4 grain difference in powder. Neither rifle showed any pressure signs on the cartridge and bolt lift was easy. But when I got home from the range I had to check my data books just to make sure that I hadn't made a mistake in my loads.

Any way I realize they are two different sets of data, and two different bullets. Both were safe loads in my rifles so no big deal. Really need to get a chronograph.

 

[JD338]

A chronograph is vital tool for load development. Once you get one, you will wonder how you ever got along with out one.

Bore expansion ratio will have an effect on pressure/velocity. If you made a comparison between the two calibers at mid range or max level loads, it would be a closer comparison. You really can't compare the powders and the charge weight but velocities and pressure levels.

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

A prediction 4 U!

Cartridge : 8 mm-06
Bullet : .323, 175, Sierra SP 2410
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.175 inch or 80.65 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 87 47.25 2514 2457 38186 7330 98.3 1.342
-09.0 88 47.78 2539 2505 39328 7399 98.6 1.323
-08.0 89 48.30 2564 2554 40503 7466 98.8 1.306
-07.0 90 48.83 2588 2603 41713 7530 99.0 1.289
-06.0 91 49.35 2613 2653 42959 7592 99.2 1.272
-05.0 92 49.88 2637 2703 44242 7651 99.4 1.255
-04.0 92 50.40 2662 2753 45564 7708 99.5 1.239
-03.0 93 50.93 2686 2803 46922 7761 99.7 1.222
-02.0 94 51.45 2710 2854 48318 7812 99.8 1.207
-01.0 95 51.98 2734 2905 49766 7860 99.9 1.191
+00.0 96 52.50 2758 2956 51251 7905 99.9 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
+01.0 97 53.03 2782 3007 52787 7947 100.0 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 98 53.55 2806 3059 54363 7987 100.0 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
+03.0 99 54.08 2829 3110 55980 8023 100.0 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 100 54.60 2853 3162 57641 8058 100.0 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
+05.0 101 55.13 2876 3214 59349 8093 100.0 1.104 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 96 52.50 2855 3167 60650 7605 100.0 1.100 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 96 52.50 2616 2659 42272 7950 96.7 1.276

 

[BK]

It all about cartridge capacity. The '06 case is in metric terms, what, 7.62x61? 62? Versus 8x57? Bigger furnace needs more fuel for the same velocity.

 

[taylorce1]

It all about cartridge capacity. The '06 case is in metric terms, what, 7.62x61? 62? Versus 8x57? Bigger furnace needs more fuel for the same velocity.

Well both are roughly the same case capacity, since both are based off of the .30-06 cartridge.

A chronograph is vital tool for load development. Once you get one, you will wonder how you ever got along with out one.

I know I can get a basic one for around $100 I've just never bought one. I've just always tried to find a consistant 1.5" or less load in all my hunting rifles.

I was just shooting the .35 Whelen at a gong practicing my off hand shooting wasn't really trying to compare the loads. Just was surprised a little bit. Honestly I was being lazy as I didn't want to pull any bullets. :wink: I'm going to see if I can get 250gr NP to shoot next in this rifle. I'm hoping they work as I've got the dreaded 1:16 barrel.

POP, thanks for the quick load info.

 

[bullet]

JD388 is absolutely right about the Chrony. You will truly wonder why you waited so long to get one. Without a Chrony all my work would be a guess at best. They are invaluable to the reloader and especially if you are developing hunting loads because it lets you know what your velocities are going to be down range at different distances and the energy retained to get the job done.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Ditto JD338
Once you get a chronograph you will discover the loading manuals are only basic guides that keeps you from blowing up your gun and gives you some idea of what your velocities might be. The chambers and barrels they use for their testing have different tollerances than most sporting rifles. I suspect you will find the FPEs and Velocities between the two calibers will end up more simular than the manuals show. They are both based on the 30-06 case capacity.
Good Shooting
Elkhunt :grin:

 

[JD338]

taylorce1

Nothing wrong with the 1:16 twist in the 35 Whelen. My M700 Classic shoots 200 gr , 225 gr, and 250 gr PT's better than MOA.
IMR4064, AA2015 and now RL15 have all worked well. I would start with RL 15. :wink:

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

30-06 = 7.62 x 63 mm in metric notation.

 

[BK]

Thanks, POP. Knew I was close.

Cracks me up that everyone is saying that the 8mm is based on the '06 case. Well, kinda, only 18 years before... the Mauser came out in 1888 (according to Chuck Hawks) vs 1906 (1903 if you want to split hair with the .30-03)

So a 57mm long case has the same capacity as a 63mm case of the same diameter? Hmm.

 

[taylorce1]

So a 57mm long case has the same capacity as a 63mm case of the same diameter? Hmm.

No it doesn't but my rifle is a 8X63mm. I'm guessing the throat of the military barrel was showing erosion. When I bought the rifle it was reamed out and chambered in 8mm-06 not 8X57JS.

Now if you want to talk the differences in the 8X57 and the .35 Whelen I'll totally agree with you. The 35 Whelen does have the bigger furnace in that case. However between my two rifles the only thing the .35 Whelen has is a larger bore diameter.

 

[Greg Nolan]

The 8mm-06 is a 8mm rifle reamed out to 30-06 case size. It was the most popular conversion after WWII when German 98 Mausers were cheap as dirt and 30-06 surplus ammo and cases were the same. The 30-06 has more case capacity than the 8mm and alows higher velocities in the GEW 98 Mauser. As far a which case came first the US Goverment ended up paying Peter Paul Mauser for patent infringement because the 30-03 and 30-06 were modified copies of the 8mm concept. It was and still is a fantastic round that has accounted for more deer than many of the calibers that have been invented in the last 25 years.
Good Hunting
Elkhunt :grin:

 

[BK]

So a 57mm long case has the same capacity as a 63mm case of the same diameter? Hmm.

No it doesn't but my rifle is a 8X63mm. I'm guessing the throat of the military barrel was showing erosion. When I bought the rifle it was reamed out and chambered in 8mm-06 not 8X57JS.

Now if you want to talk the differences in the 8X57 and the .35 Whelen I'll totally agree with you. The 35 Whelen does have the bigger furnace in that case. However between my two rifles the only thing the .35 Whelen has is a larger bore diameter.

Gotcha. I totally missed that it wasn't a standard 8x57. Please ignore my obnxious comments above.

 

[taylorce1]

Gotcha. I totally missed that it wasn't a standard 8x57. Please ignore my obnxious comments above.

Its ok, I've done the same thing before.

 

[BK]

Well, it's not like it says "8mm-06" right in the subject line! (BK slaps his forehead) Duh!

 

[HunterJim]

Your .35 Whelen (or .358"X63mm) should produce higher velocity than your 8mm'06 (.323"X63mm) because you are expanding the gas from firing in a larger bore and that converts to more work done on the bullet moving down the bore and a higher velocity with bullets of the same weight.

jim

 

[taylorce1]

Your .35 Whelen (or .358"X63mm) should produce higher velocity than your 8mm'06 (.323"X63mm) because you are expanding the gas from firing in a larger bore and that converts to more work done on the bullet moving down the bore and a higher velocity with bullets of the same weight.

jim

Yep I get that, and it shoud create higer velocities with the same powder charge. That was kind of what got me to thinking I might be a little hot in my .35 Whelen when compared to may 8mm-06. I was 3.5 grains more in my Whelen than the near max load in my 8mm by the Sierra manual and only 5 grains difference in bullet weight.

 

[DrMike]

taylorce1,

Keep in mind that you have a different bearing surface in the two bullets. Thus, the pressure required to drive the bullets along the rifling is not equal. Therefore, efficiency of a given powder, in this case H4895, will likely vary. Also, the actual measured pressure generated may vary by a significant amount.

Whilst the weight differential is not great, it is nevertheless real. However, the difference in bearing surface is significant. Also, bear in mind that Sierra developed their data using a 26 inch barrel, while Speer developed their data using a 22 inch barrel. This says nothing of the potential difference in lot numbers used and the fact that Sierra and Speer technicians are using different rifle systems (Savage versus Remington).

The data you read is only a guide to safe reloading; your results will quite likely vary quite a bit from the published data. The advice to secure a chronograph is good advice which will help in clearing up some of the questions you raise.