A bit of a rant.

[ShadeTree]

Didn't want to derail the topic in Hodgeman's post about custom guns, but something Idaho mentioned about his gun not having any barrel break in, opened the door to something I've considered posting before but refrained at the risk of offending some with a different view.

But it's what I whole heartedly believe so I gotta say it. Maybe it will make the shooting sport more fun for someone reading this in the future, and save some a lot of headache and worry.

Of course it helps to start with a quality made barrel, but I'm not buying the barrel break in deal and never will. I've watched some poor individuals on youtube that I genuinely felt sorry for. They were in their third hour of being out in the hot sun following exact instructions they read of the proper shooting and cleaning routine for proper barrel break in, and questioning if they were doing it right.

RIDICULOUS. I've got some really good shooting older guns that were made during a time when the machinists producing the gun, and the individuals that ended up shooting them, had never even heard of barrel break in much less done it. Even some newer good shooting guns, I know where they came from and trust me, they were never "broke in."

I doubt loose and thin metal flakes were left in the bore, but if they were they were blown out during the high pressure proof tests. Any remaining heavy burrs or chatter marks left ingrained in the metal from any manufacturing and machining process will be in there for the life of the metal save a lapping process with grit involved.

In the absence of extreme heat, softer copper being sent down that tempered and hardened steel bore will not remove or smooth out any protruding burrs or chatter marks regardless of the "proper" start up routine. It's mechanically and scientifically at odds. When 2 different metals are in competition in a friction and wear contest, the softer metal will yield immediately each and every time. It's why you get copper out of your bore and never steel. The copper wears against the steel not the other way around. Newton's law pretty much guarantee's that. When the copper bullet applies force and friction to the steel bore, the steel bore applies the same amount of both in return, and the lesser of the 2 gives way.

You will never wear out the teeth on a Nicholson file if used to file copper and lead bullets if you and the next 3 generations worked at it for their lifetime. Might end up with 3 stories tall of metal filings, but the Nicholson file teeth will still be making copper shavings out of new bullets.

If you for some reason like doing a break in process, then by all means have at it. If not, buy a new gun, clean the grease out following instructions that come with the gun, lightly oil it where it needs to be, find a bullet combo it likes and have fun! You or your gun will never know the difference.

Rant over.

 

[Europe]

since I am currently enjoying the casinos, I will use a little poker lingo---I will call and raise, your rant.

In a nutshell, I agree, as I mentioned in Mike's thread, a custom rifle is not needed to successfully hunt any animal on earth, nor does it need a break in process to work properly, and to go a step further, one does not need to reload, in order to have a successful hunt in the field.

As you said, if someone enjoys putting together a custom rifle, or likes to go through a break in process and reloads, that is also o.k., to each their own. My father and grandfather never reloaded, made a rifle, or possibly even knew that some believe a barrel break in routine is necessary and we always had game in the freezer and on the table.

However, my husband and son did and do enjoy reloading, and I like custom rifles ( mainly so I can have a nice wood stock on it )

 

[drakehammer]

I’m a believer in minimal break-in. I’ve chambered numerous barrels and found that copper fouling removed is worst on very first shot, and gets better after one or two 2-3 shot sequences and cleaning. Done. They are usually good to go to 600 yards at that point if the chambering was done well.


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[ShadeTree]

Europe, enjoy your time at the casino's, just don't bank on enough winnings to buy a new rifle, but I hope you do. Ha.

Just to clarify, this wasn't anything against or to do with custom guns, as I'm a fan of craftsmanship in just about any form.

But I read stuff where new to the sport or to reloading in general, people are asking questions and getting long filled out answers as to all the ways and why's of "proper" barrel break in, even with new factory guns.

Poor people can't even really enjoy their new toy or hobby, all worried about committing some type of cardinal sin and ruining their chances with their new prized possession of being a good shooter, if they don't break in the barrel right.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I load up what I want to test and take the newly chambered gun to the range. I typically shoot 15-20 times and then clean the gun. Most of the time the barrel cleaning takes no longer after 15 round then it does after 1 or 2 the first time it is fired. So I stopped wasting my time. It doesn't effect accuracy in any way on a custom barrel. I've shot so many small groups in the first 10 rounds through a barrel it's silly. After the first cleaning I shoot most guns 50-100 rounds before cleaning again. I personally think a person would be better served to scrub a barrel for 100 strokes with JB's, Flitz, or similar instead of wasting ammo and cleaning products breaking in a barrel. My dad did that with his 160.00 Wilson barrel and it regularly shoots in the .1's at 100yds. He has even shot a few groups in the .0XX's.

 

[ShadeTree]

I’m a believer in minimal break-in. I’ve chambered numerous barrels and found that copper fouling removed is worst on very first shot, and gets better after one or two 2-3 shot sequences and cleaning. Done. They are usually good to go to 600 yards at that point if the chambering was done well.


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Drakehammer, let me ask you a sincere question. Do you think if after say even 50 or 100 shots you would clean your bore until like " brand new" clean, and verify it with a bore scope that there wasn't a speck of copper or carbon within the bore. Do you think that first shot heavier fouling would return?

I believe it would, because the copper on that first bullet would once again be being dragged and scraped off in excess by all the barely perceivable or microscopic high or sharp spots of the tempered steel within the bore. Just like applying putty, it fills in all the imperfections within the bore after a couple shots, and it's smooth sailing from that point on until it gets to the point it is causing abnormal restriction.

Gotta go for now, I'll check back later. Hope I didn't offend or upset anyone and if I can be shown proof of the opposite, I'm all for listening.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I doubt it would. Most of the time the first shot copper fouls worse because of the burrs left from a chamber reamer. I saw that on every custom barrel I chambered when I use to do the one shot clean for 5 and then 3 shot clean for 15 thing. Like I said scrubbing with JB's or similar will prevent most of this from occurring.

 

[PJGunner]

Over on The Firing Line there is a sticky in one forum believe it is Rifle general of a post by the late barrel maker Gale McMillan on breaking in a barrel. He stated that if someone bought one of his barrels and did a breaking in procedure, the warranty would be null and void. The thread is about the pros and cons and people's opinions but well worth reading.
I've had several rifle builds done and I've never bothered to break it in. I figure but the time I have a few good loads worked up, it's broken in. Only one rifle have I ever had to mess with the barrel, a Winchester M70 Featherweight 7x57 with an extremely rough barrel. I did a shortened firelap procedure on the rifle and it shoots very nicely now and is rapidly becoming a favorite. Very accurate and recoil is mild. 8)
Paul B.

 

[drakehammer]

I’m a believer in minimal break-in. I’ve chambered numerous barrels and found that copper fouling removed is worst on very first shot, and gets better after one or two 2-3 shot sequences and cleaning. Done. They are usually good to go to 600 yards at that point if the chambering was done well.


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Drakehammer, let me ask you a sincere question. Do you think if after say even 50 or 100 shots you would clean your bore until like " brand new" clean, and verify it with a bore scope that there wasn't a speck of copper or carbon within the bore. Do you think that first shot heavier fouling would return?

No offense taken at all.

Of course, I think the first “fouling” shot in a typical series on a clean barrel is generally the heaviest fouling round, regardless if the barrel is newly chambered or if it has just been broken in or if it is almost shot out.

I also believe there is a point where after many rounds the fouling becomes excessive or uneven and may actually worsen with each successive shot.

Back to the topic. I believe the break in process that I use removes burrs and some minor tooling imperfections to a desirable level whereby excessive and / or unequal copper buildup is minimized and prolonged to accommodate the normal anticipated shot sequence for which I intend to use it between cleanings.

Your argument about steel and copper hardness is valid. However, during the break in process, we’re not really relying on just soft copper bullets to “lap” the burrs and minor tooling imperfections in the steel. Instead we’re using 5000F hot gases at 60K psi to do that job. Those hot gases are twice the melting temp of stainless, so it is reasonable that the gases at those temps and pressures indeed do lap some burrs and imperfections in a freshly chambered barrel. I have seen Tubb’s “lapping bullets” work to revitalize barrels to some extent, which combines all of these elements with lapping compound-like action.

Note however that the same forces also are responsible for the fire-cracking that the barrel experiences over time, and especially when the barrel is allowed to heat excessively with continued fire. Slow fire or other means of cooling minimizes heat penetration near the surface of the steel and minimizes steel expansion, which minimizes fire-cracking and usually corresponds to longer barrel life.

Finally, i will say I have seen some competition barrels that shot lights out but clearly fouled excessively compared to equivalent barrels. So fouling obviously isn’t always detrimental to accuracy and it only matters if it hurts.


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[Anonymous]

Yeah- I've done the barrel break-in and not done it. From my perspective, It's largely a waste of time and mental energy and I've never found any compelling evidence it does much at all. The internet is full of anecdotal type stories but I never found anything in my personal experience that it did anything at all that normal use wouldn't have done equally as well.

That said- I generally clean every 50-100 rounds and never let a barrel get too hot to hold onto.

I know there are folks who get pretty OCD about it and if they think it's value added- more power to them. I have an analogy- just like fly fishing...some people make it complicated because they just like it that way.

 

[ShadeTree]

Drakehammer, some good points and yep, allowing the barrel to get hot enough that it can no longer wisk away heat will do all sorts of bad things. Your method is like you say minimal and if it gets you the results your after that's what matters.

PJ, the fire lapping is a little different if you're talking about something along the lines of the Tubb's lapping bullets that Drakehammer referenced. I agree that some rifles have rough bores and can benefit greatly from smoothing them out, I just don't think a break in procedure with ordinary copper jacketed bullets will do it.

Hodgeman, that's where I'm at, where's the evidence, and by who's standard is firing X amount of bullets and then cleaning, the best way?

Was I reading your post right on the custom gun thread where the gun that impressed everybody and shot 1/2", 6 shot groups with 3 different shooters was an out of the box gun?

Also just to be clear to all, I didn't start this thread to disagree with anybody that's been around and has a system they believe works. It was started more for a newbie who when doing an internet search might stumble across an alternative train of thought compared to some of the instructions I've seen handed out to someone asking.

Shoot 2 times clean. Three times clean. Shoot 5 shots 3 times in a row cleaning after each 5 shot group, 10 times clean, and so on and so forth. They like to clean with this solvent the first time and then only use another solvent thereafter. Where did this stuff come from??

They might as well instruct you to attempt to stand on your head and shoot flying monkeys upside down for good measure, just in case the accuracy god's were not pleased with the procedure. When it comes to all that, I'm not even slightly beginning to buy it. Tack driving guns have been around too long that were sold when nobody heard of such a thing.

 

[Dwh7271]

I load up what I want to test and take the newly chambered gun to the range. I typically shoot 15-20 times and then clean the gun. Most of the time the barrel cleaning takes no longer after 15 round then it does after 1 or 2 the first time it is fired.

I agree completely for what my agreement is worth.
I build them to shoot them. A barrel is a consumable IMO. On a custom rifle, barring the trigger, it's a medium to lower cost part.
I load them and shoot them. Not advocating or trying to change anyone's mind just saying what works for me.
I have four old rifles that I purchased before Al Gore invented the internet. I had never heard of a break in process(and was a young hunter full of vim and vigor) so I took them out and shot them. While being hunting rifles that probably never saw 50 or 60 rounds a year through them they still shoot as well or better as they did 35 years ago. Barring an extremely fouled or dirty barrel, an accurate hunting rifle is an accurate hunting rifle. :grin:



edit: Ooops. Hit code instead of quote. Sorry!

 

[Polaris]

My version of "break-in" has been to dig up whatever suitable "leftover" components I have laying around, put together a bunch of random loads with a safety margin, and then get a feel for how the gun shoots in it's intended role dinging away at a bunch of random junk in a gravel pit after a rough zero on paper. After 20 rounds, I run a patch of Sweets and see if I get blue. If I do, I continue to clean after 20 shot strings. If not, I proceed to burn up the rest of the ammo and thoroughly clean at home. My "break-in" may be spread across 2 or 3 sessions and is usually around 100 rounds. This process has served me well from high end target rifles to $75 Mosin Nagants. In addition to giving me some hands on familiarity with the rifle, it seems to knock loose any future problems before I waste a bunch of time and loads figuring out I have a screw loose, and also settle the components of the rifle in to where I can start some meaningful load development. If I didn't enjoy casual plinking so much, I would be content for most of my applications to simply unbox a rifle, test the screws and go to the range.

 

[ShadeTree]

I load up what I want to test and take the newly chambered gun to the range. I typically shoot 15-20 times and then clean the gun. Most of the time the barrel cleaning takes no longer after 15 round then it does after 1 or 2 the first time it is fired.

I agree completely for what my agreement is worth.
I build them to shoot them. A barrel is a consumable IMO. On a custom rifle, barring the trigger, it's a medium to lower cost part.
I load them and shoot them. Not advocating or trying to change anyone's mind just saying what works for me.
I have four old rifles that I purchased before Al Gore invented the internet. I had never heard of a break in process(and was a young hunter full of vim and vigor) so I took them out and shot them. While being hunting rifles that probably never saw 50 or 60 rounds a year through them they still shoot as well or better as they did 35 years ago. Barring an extremely fouled or dirty barrel, an accurate hunting rifle is an accurate hunting rifle. :grin:



edit: Ooops. Hit code instead of quote. Sorry!

Ha. The facts do seem to elude Al. Good he got that done before 2013 when all the polar ice caps were gone and there were dead fish floating everywhere in the streets of Florida. :grin:

Agree with your post.

 

[FOTIS]

I have played with and owned hundreds of rifles. Never broke in one

 

[nvbroncrider]

Broke in one. Waste of time had others shoot as well if not better. First custom. Never again. Shoot first 20-100 and scrub barrel. Then clean when it tells you. Ain't gonna waste my time cleaning a barrel for hours that will only see 5-6 seconds of bullet time.

 

[ozarkpugs]

I feel seasoning a barrel with carbon is good carbon is hard and fills little imperfections where copper might flow into if left void . When you get through laughing at this read it again with an open mind . I think the powder and bullet used in the breaking in process plays a big role in whether it's a waste of time or not and with most bullets and powders it may be. My very humble opinion is a very hard (maybe bimetal /steel bullet) with a powder designed to reduce copper fowling like cfe within a few shots removes any flakes / burrs / or whatever and leave a good carbon seasoning . I know it's not exactly the same but take a carrot and scrub a new cast-iron pot then scrub a seasoned pot with one . Maybe it my imagination but it seems to work for me . Maybe we need break in powders.

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[gbflyer]

I like to take a couple of foulers into the dirt pile and see if a new barrel is going to copper-up heavily. Usually the first one does as it cleans up the throat. I’ll strip the copper, usually the 2nd shot isn’t as bad. Strip it again then go shoot up to 20. Strip it again then clean as necessary when accuracy falls off.

This process makes me feel good, but probably doesn’t help much.

 

[Buckskinner]

I am in 100% agreement with the Author of this post. I have never followed a "procedure" to "break-in" a rifle barrel. Having said that, I'll mention my Remington 700 CDL in 25-06! I shot 100 rounds of factory ammo out of this rifle before starting to hand load for it. I cleaned the bore at that point, then began working up a good all-around hunting load for it. This rifle will shoot Nosler 100 gr. Ballistic Tip Bullets into 3/8ths or 1/2 inch at 100 yards any day of the week and twice on Sundays!
This entire notion about using some special "procedure" for breaking in a rifle barrel is pure Horse feathers..... When you buy a new rifle, you should run a tight fitting patch or two down the bore just to make sure that the bore is ready to fire through but, nothing further needs to be determined where that is concerned. I have owned and operated many "new" rifles from a fair variety of manufactures and I have always sighted them in, shot them and either had a rifle that would shoot right out of the box, or had to work with the bedding and loads to get what I expected. If a man pays good money for a rifle and feels the need to "break-in" the barrel, it's his money and his time and he is welcome to waste one or both as he sees fit.....

 

[truck driver]

I wasn't going to respond to this post but have found the different responses interesting and decided to give my 2cents worth.
Having a custom barreled rifle which I never broke in because when I had it installed on my action I had never heard of having to do it back in the day (1970's ) and it shot great then and still does to this day.
I had a barrel bored out and chambered for the 35 Wnelen/AI and decided to break it in since it was a new cut rifled barrel and since it hadn't been lapped it might need some burrs removed.
Did the break in procedure and and it would still turn into a copper mine.
One of the post mentioned using a fouling inhibiting powder like cfe, funny thing is cfe 223 was QL's pick for the best powder for use in this cartridge and would leave the bore black as coal after the first shot but still coppered heavily. I shot the living heck out of this barrel developing loads and because it was fun to shoot and simply amazed me how accurate it was and the more I shot it the more accurate it got. I also scrubbed the day lights out of it using various cleaners to remove the fouling and polish the barrel. I even added pumice to some J-B bore cleaner to speed up the process figuring I couldn't hurt it any more then I already had if any and felt it was safer then fire lapping it.
(Disclaimer) I don't recommend doing this to your rifle!
After several hundred rounds it settled down and stopped fouling to the point that I didn't feel the need to clean it after each range session and could shoot it multiple sessions without cleaning to maintain accuracy.
I don't know if the cleaning sessions or the shooting several hundred rounds threw the barrel was the cause for it to stop copper fouling to the point it looked like a copper mine inside.
I can still see the cut marks in the grooves from the rifling cutter but it no longer grabs copper like it did.
During hunting season I shoot a couple of fouling shots and don't clean the barrel till the end of the season, just call it superstition.