Annealing Brass
- Thread starter Vince
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Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 298
i use a drill and a socket to spin them...so they get heated as evenly as possible all the way around...
In a dim lit room (daytime, no lights on, curtains closed)...heat them until they just "begin" to turn red...and dump them in the water.
In a dim lit room (daytime, no lights on, curtains closed)...heat them until they just "begin" to turn red...and dump them in the water.
HeathSexton
Handloader
- May 12, 2006
- 1,208
- 37
I do the drill/socket/spin drop in water but after doing it enough about 6-7 Mississippis and drop them in the water. It's much easier to anneal in good light and count slowly towards 7.
Darkhorse
Handloader
- Mar 14, 2014
- 822
- 185
I do it basically the same but I like some light so I can see the case. I attempt to get the same length flame each time then wedge the torch on the floor with the flame angling away from me. This is so the flame only washes the neck.
If your starting out practice with old or bad brass. Clean the brass first so you can see the discoloration better on the shoulder. Place the neck in the flame and count slowly while watching the neck. Just as it starts to turn dull red take it out of the flame and drop it in the water. Remember your count as it gives you a baseline.
After awhile you won't need to count. I want to see heat discoloration a certain distance below the shoulder. And watch for that along with the neck. HEED! Do not let the heat travel to the case head!
I just happen to have a couple of photo's showing an annealed case. This is basically what mine looks like except this one was neck turned after annealing. If your consistant just as the heat line gets to that certain spot the neck begins to turn. So both are used as a visual guide.
If your starting out practice with old or bad brass. Clean the brass first so you can see the discoloration better on the shoulder. Place the neck in the flame and count slowly while watching the neck. Just as it starts to turn dull red take it out of the flame and drop it in the water. Remember your count as it gives you a baseline.
After awhile you won't need to count. I want to see heat discoloration a certain distance below the shoulder. And watch for that along with the neck. HEED! Do not let the heat travel to the case head!
I just happen to have a couple of photo's showing an annealed case. This is basically what mine looks like except this one was neck turned after annealing. If your consistant just as the heat line gets to that certain spot the neck begins to turn. So both are used as a visual guide.
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Darkhorse
Handloader
- Mar 14, 2014
- 822
- 185
No pliars or fingers. I use a deep socket that the case will fit snugly but will fall out of when you tip it over. I want to say 5/8 but I don't really remember. I have an old extension cut off to about 4" that fits the drill chuck on one of my battery drill drivers and the extension fits the socket.
You place the case head into the socket then tip it up at a angle that keeps the case from falling out. Then start the drill turning and as soon as you place the neck in the flame you start counting. This keeps the heat equal all the way around the neck.
You will learn from experience how high to tip the case and how fast to turn it.
This way you never touch a hot case. And after you get the hang of it you can do a bunch of cases in just a short while.
You place the case head into the socket then tip it up at a angle that keeps the case from falling out. Then start the drill turning and as soon as you place the neck in the flame you start counting. This keeps the heat equal all the way around the neck.
You will learn from experience how high to tip the case and how fast to turn it.
This way you never touch a hot case. And after you get the hang of it you can do a bunch of cases in just a short while.
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
I can not recommend more strongly the use of tempilaq temp indicating liquid to take out the guess work. Yes, many people don't use it, to each his own, everyone has opinions, here are mine.
Put some 750 tempilaq on the INSIDE of the empty rifle case neck (and some 400 on the outside of the case from the middle of the case down on a few to prove to yourself you are not annealing that part of the case - if doing shorter rifle cases).
Take the case out of the flame as the 750 melts off/turns color on the inside of the neck. Use this procedure to set your machines timing and to spot check your machine (if using a machine), or, in this instance or if doing by hand, use it on every case......if you want the most consistent annealing/most consistent neck tension when combined with other case prep, which is why I anneal. YMMV
Interesting thing to note .... 750 tempilaq will typically melt BEFORE a case neck turns red ...draw your own conclusions.
You don't need to quench brass when annealing, unless you want to cool the brass faster so you can pick it up sooner (If you have over annealed it, the damage is already done when you take it out of the flame....quenching wont cure it)
Put some 750 tempilaq on the INSIDE of the empty rifle case neck (and some 400 on the outside of the case from the middle of the case down on a few to prove to yourself you are not annealing that part of the case - if doing shorter rifle cases).
Take the case out of the flame as the 750 melts off/turns color on the inside of the neck. Use this procedure to set your machines timing and to spot check your machine (if using a machine), or, in this instance or if doing by hand, use it on every case......if you want the most consistent annealing/most consistent neck tension when combined with other case prep, which is why I anneal. YMMV
Interesting thing to note .... 750 tempilaq will typically melt BEFORE a case neck turns red ...draw your own conclusions.
You don't need to quench brass when annealing, unless you want to cool the brass faster so you can pick it up sooner (If you have over annealed it, the damage is already done when you take it out of the flame....quenching wont cure it)
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
Q: If you don't quench, how do you keep the heat from the base of the case?
My answer: I have found, that when annealing from .223/5.56 brass and longer length brass, that if the neck isn't being over annealed (getting too hot), the bottom half/base of the case will not exceed 400. In other words, you don't want to touch it/its too hot to touch (drill socket is good idea) - just like a hot case leaving a gas driven semi auto - but its not being annealed at all if its' not over 400.
The 400 tempilaq on the outside of the case from the middle down to the base should be used to prove it though.
What I have found .... is that once the brass is taken out of the flame that is at the neck, the 400 tempilaq immediately stops changing. I have painted the 400 tempilaq from the Neck to the base to prove point. Once it leaves the flame, the 400 degree line immediately stops moving lower.....without quenching.
In my opinion, in 1.75 inch and longer brass cases, using "traditional" one or two small propane flames to anneal with .... a guy would really have to be over annealing the neck in order to get over 400 at the base. My short cases (.223), never get close to 1/2 way. But, I do paint a few when setting up my machine to make sure, which is why I mentioned that step.
Hope this answers the question
My answer: I have found, that when annealing from .223/5.56 brass and longer length brass, that if the neck isn't being over annealed (getting too hot), the bottom half/base of the case will not exceed 400. In other words, you don't want to touch it/its too hot to touch (drill socket is good idea) - just like a hot case leaving a gas driven semi auto - but its not being annealed at all if its' not over 400.
The 400 tempilaq on the outside of the case from the middle down to the base should be used to prove it though.
What I have found .... is that once the brass is taken out of the flame that is at the neck, the 400 tempilaq immediately stops changing. I have painted the 400 tempilaq from the Neck to the base to prove point. Once it leaves the flame, the 400 degree line immediately stops moving lower.....without quenching.
In my opinion, in 1.75 inch and longer brass cases, using "traditional" one or two small propane flames to anneal with .... a guy would really have to be over annealing the neck in order to get over 400 at the base. My short cases (.223), never get close to 1/2 way. But, I do paint a few when setting up my machine to make sure, which is why I mentioned that step.
Hope this answers the question
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
I reread my post and thought I might add this.
If you remove the neck of the brass from the flame, as the 750 tempilaq on the INSIDE of the case neck changes ..... the heat in excess of 400 degrees pretty much immediately stops migrating down the case any further. AND when/if you use some 400 degree tempilaq on the outside of the case ..... you can actually see the heat migrating lower when the brass neck is in the flame and where the 400 degree line stops when you take it out of the flame.
This is why I really like encouraging people to use the paint, it takes guess work out of it - both in terms of not over annealing the neck AND insuring the base is not annealed, in my opinion....which means nothing btw :0)
hope this might make it clearer and help some
If you remove the neck of the brass from the flame, as the 750 tempilaq on the INSIDE of the case neck changes ..... the heat in excess of 400 degrees pretty much immediately stops migrating down the case any further. AND when/if you use some 400 degree tempilaq on the outside of the case ..... you can actually see the heat migrating lower when the brass neck is in the flame and where the 400 degree line stops when you take it out of the flame.
This is why I really like encouraging people to use the paint, it takes guess work out of it - both in terms of not over annealing the neck AND insuring the base is not annealed, in my opinion....which means nothing btw :0)
hope this might make it clearer and help some
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXLPGcSNyUs
or search "Anneal Rite 3 10 10" on youtube
This video (no affiliation) shows the use of the tempilaq paint at the 2:50 mark.....and probably explains it 10 times better than I can...lol He is using the 750/450 paint combo ... I use 750/400 combo.
Again, just trying to be helpful to some looking for info...I am not any more enlightened than the next guy
or search "Anneal Rite 3 10 10" on youtube
This video (no affiliation) shows the use of the tempilaq paint at the 2:50 mark.....and probably explains it 10 times better than I can...lol He is using the 750/450 paint combo ... I use 750/400 combo.
Again, just trying to be helpful to some looking for info...I am not any more enlightened than the next guy
257 Ackley
Handloader
- Nov 25, 2008
- 1,763
- 0
greenheadcaller":1p1ks6op said:
Great inexpensive tool for annealing! This makes a lot of sense for someone who isn't doing massive amounts of cases. I would recommend the use of tempilaq as well to help tell you what temps you really are getting to.
I use this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCWni2nNNeE but anneal after every firing which means about 5-6000 rounds a year. Nice feature with this equipment is you can load it and work on another part of the reloading process while they are annealing.
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
Alderman":3ua0if47 said:
Annealing them twice/rerunning them again before firing won't hurt the brass, provided you don't exceed/overheat them. However, once they are over heated, they are trash...... Re- annealing won't fix them. So as long as you aren't getting the necks over 800 or the lower 1/2 over 400-450you can run them twice. This is why I like the paint...we spend so much time working our brass, it's a shame (or worse) to waste cases guessing.
I anneal before I size, as do most of the guys I reload with. If, you have sized already and then anneal....I would either consider resizing in case the stress relief allowed the brass to tweek....or you could double check the headspace measurements and the neck opening measurements, and case length measurements and compare them to your desired measurements/or your none annealed sized cases to make sure nothing moved (likely) and after confirmed proceed with confidence.
Edit for this....just make sure if you are rerunning for whatever reason, you start with room temperature brass/or the same general temperature brass you set your machine timer or your process with or use the paint agAin....obviously hot brass will get to 750 before cold brass will.
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
257 Ackley":2s9cg6vb said:
That looks like a nice machine too and I am with you (except I went with the Bench Source). I also rigged the two camper propane burners to a regular propane tank so I don't have to deal with changing bottle pressures messing with my timer set when doing volume. Your giraud looks real nice too!
Here is an annealing method from the 24Hour Campfire. I have not tried annealing but think it about time to give it a try.
Factors In Accuracy, Part II: Handloads
by John Barsness
Brass fired several times also tends to work-harden, the result of being stretched and resized. This particularly affects the neck, because it's sized twice, once when squeezed down, then again when pulled over the expander ball. Work-hardening also causes erratic bullet release. Again, I generally toss common calibers after a few loadings, but anneal more expensive brass.
The traditional annealing method suggests heating the necks "cherry-red" with a propane torch, then dousing in cold water. But cherry-red makes the necks too soft.
The melted-lead dip method is much better, as is Hornady's annealing kit, but I use a simpler method perfected by my friend Fred Barker. With Fred's method you hold the case in your fingertips, halfway up the case body, then heat the neck in the flame from a common wax candle, turning it constantly, until the case gets too hot to hold. Drop it onto a water-soaked towel, then use the towel to wipe the case off, which finishes the annealing and gets rid of the black soot from the candle. The Barker Method is fast, cheap, easy, and anneals just the right amount
Factors In Accuracy, Part II: Handloads
by John Barsness
Brass fired several times also tends to work-harden, the result of being stretched and resized. This particularly affects the neck, because it's sized twice, once when squeezed down, then again when pulled over the expander ball. Work-hardening also causes erratic bullet release. Again, I generally toss common calibers after a few loadings, but anneal more expensive brass.
The traditional annealing method suggests heating the necks "cherry-red" with a propane torch, then dousing in cold water. But cherry-red makes the necks too soft.
The melted-lead dip method is much better, as is Hornady's annealing kit, but I use a simpler method perfected by my friend Fred Barker. With Fred's method you hold the case in your fingertips, halfway up the case body, then heat the neck in the flame from a common wax candle, turning it constantly, until the case gets too hot to hold. Drop it onto a water-soaked towel, then use the towel to wipe the case off, which finishes the annealing and gets rid of the black soot from the candle. The Barker Method is fast, cheap, easy, and anneals just the right amount
greenheadcaller
Beginner
- Jul 8, 2014
- 119
- 0
Rol_P":2s3cnwio said:
Interesting read. My 2 cents ... without getting into the metallurgy because it is probably above my pay grade anyway....all I will say is proper brass annealing is all about temperature and duration. For example, annealing brass in some industrial applications, including some (not all) rifle brass making applications before forming begins, involves keeping brass at a constant temperature (say exceeding 500 degrees) for extended periods of time. Handloaders don't have that option, because it would anneal the case base too which is bad. So we "cheat" by rapidly heating the necks to a temperature determined by metallurgy, and letting them air cool slowly ..the duration part (if not quenching), while at the same time making sure we don't anneal the base or over soften/over anneal the neck.
All I can say on the finger pain article is this, because I think it's important, when you use tempilaq (+ one or two "traditional" small propane fired torch heads) and quickly heat the neck and anneal to the previously stated temps of 750 degrees F inside neck (no more - no less) while at the same time insuring lower 1/2 of case doesn't exceed 400-450 degrees F, you will absolutely find that the cases are way too hot to handle comfortably....believe me....they will burn you. (See socket and/or other methods shown or discussed) Beyond the inconsistent results and subjectivity of the finger test ..........my concern is that all a guy would end up with is wasted time, sore/blistered finger tips, and more to the point...brass that hasn't been annealed (which is better than over annealed - but kind of defeats the purpose).
Just my 2 cents....tempilaq is cheap ... $22 bucks for 2 oz's at Midway x 2 bottles, lasts a long time.
Again, not trying to run roughshod over people....just trying to help those who have never done it to make it worth their while...safely.
