Bullet jacket/ core composition
- Thread starter slickrem
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A good article on the subject of copper bullets and bullets with lead cores is at: http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/PDFs_ ... isons4.pdf
Readers digest version is that, copper is generally seen as being too soft with it resulting in more fouling and higher pressures at the same velocity than most gilding materials.
Barnes copper bullets were noted as excessively fouling and running slow at high pressure until they put groves in the bullets. All copper bullets are taking a bit of time to figure out how to make and run them properly. Nosler E-tips and I believe Hornady GMX bullets use gilding material as they have more experience with the material.
Lead, likewise need antimony to achieve proper hardness. Too soft and bullets are too "explosive" when expanding at high velocity, harder and they act more like FMJ's with little expansion. Additionally when one spins lead core bullets too fast or too hot, the lead core will start to liquefy destroying accuracy if not the bullet it self. Second post down notes this theory: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... s.3961627/.
Readers digest version is that, copper is generally seen as being too soft with it resulting in more fouling and higher pressures at the same velocity than most gilding materials.
Barnes copper bullets were noted as excessively fouling and running slow at high pressure until they put groves in the bullets. All copper bullets are taking a bit of time to figure out how to make and run them properly. Nosler E-tips and I believe Hornady GMX bullets use gilding material as they have more experience with the material.
Lead, likewise need antimony to achieve proper hardness. Too soft and bullets are too "explosive" when expanding at high velocity, harder and they act more like FMJ's with little expansion. Additionally when one spins lead core bullets too fast or too hot, the lead core will start to liquefy destroying accuracy if not the bullet it self. Second post down notes this theory: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... s.3961627/.
Guy Miner
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- Apr 6, 2006
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Yup, gilding metal reduces bore fouling vs pure copper jackets.
Guy
Guy
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- #4
some elementary lessons forgotton.... thanks guys
Barnes put a protective coating as I recall on their X bullets.
I ask because of those Hawk bullets..... being effective and seeing recovered bullets holding thier own... pretty impressive.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hawks+b ... WsDx3VTWxM:
Randy Brooks improved I guess what he thought Fred Barnes missed? Although Freds bullets shined and still do. Brooks still sells Freds' bullets.
From what I see sacrificing fouling for a hunting rifle for less fouling to jackets that are more prone to being brittle from work hardening to form a jacket....
"antimony to achieve proper hardness. Too soft and bullets are too "explosive" when expanding at high velocity"
I see a all copper jacket bend and flow rather than break...henceforth...
....The large mushroom limits penetration but creates a lot of damage. Cores can separate but performance is generally good.
But once the bullet is in the vital area... energy is dispersed and the job is done, which some argue it has to pass through for a blood trail. Shot placement is key.
Partitions? can fail just as easily in my HO..... if not properly placed. Even with the lower end of the bullet plowing on....
To me the only bullet that benefits a gun barrel not to foul as fast is a military FMJ... but for a hunting rifle or handgun... even multiple shots at game is no concern with fouling.
Put it to you this way.... the most bullet I shoot when testing loads is 12 bullets... at one range visit. Fouling? Even with all copper jacketed bullets? IDK.... I'm not a advid shooter and shoot hundred of rounds at a time.... I get board. I dabble with handloading, tinkering with guns I buy, upgrading the ones I have, and other things that take up my time....
To me... Performance and reliability is more important to me..... and dropping critters where the stand ! I never had to track a deer and never will.... and it's not because of the brand or type of bullet I select... although I'm not a fan of too light of a jacket bullet that would fail on a shoulder like my brother in shot with one year......... oh well, "shot placement" yep. But he just didn't get it, and either did my father in law who made the load. Although he did agree with me about shot placement but not the bullet he loaded. Even with the right bullet he wouldn't have dropped the deer in it's tracks... instead had to chase it down the ridge, across the road, through the woods, across the river and finally was able to finish him off. " I know I hit him" I know I hit him" SMH..... My father in law was so bent on the iddy bitty group he got that there was no light at the end of the tunnel for either one of them !
Barnes put a protective coating as I recall on their X bullets.
I ask because of those Hawk bullets..... being effective and seeing recovered bullets holding thier own... pretty impressive.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hawks+b ... WsDx3VTWxM:
Randy Brooks improved I guess what he thought Fred Barnes missed? Although Freds bullets shined and still do. Brooks still sells Freds' bullets.
From what I see sacrificing fouling for a hunting rifle for less fouling to jackets that are more prone to being brittle from work hardening to form a jacket....
"antimony to achieve proper hardness. Too soft and bullets are too "explosive" when expanding at high velocity"
I see a all copper jacket bend and flow rather than break...henceforth...
....The large mushroom limits penetration but creates a lot of damage. Cores can separate but performance is generally good.
But once the bullet is in the vital area... energy is dispersed and the job is done, which some argue it has to pass through for a blood trail. Shot placement is key.
Partitions? can fail just as easily in my HO..... if not properly placed. Even with the lower end of the bullet plowing on....
To me the only bullet that benefits a gun barrel not to foul as fast is a military FMJ... but for a hunting rifle or handgun... even multiple shots at game is no concern with fouling.
Put it to you this way.... the most bullet I shoot when testing loads is 12 bullets... at one range visit. Fouling? Even with all copper jacketed bullets? IDK.... I'm not a advid shooter and shoot hundred of rounds at a time.... I get board. I dabble with handloading, tinkering with guns I buy, upgrading the ones I have, and other things that take up my time....
To me... Performance and reliability is more important to me..... and dropping critters where the stand ! I never had to track a deer and never will.... and it's not because of the brand or type of bullet I select... although I'm not a fan of too light of a jacket bullet that would fail on a shoulder like my brother in shot with one year......... oh well, "shot placement" yep. But he just didn't get it, and either did my father in law who made the load. Although he did agree with me about shot placement but not the bullet he loaded. Even with the right bullet he wouldn't have dropped the deer in it's tracks... instead had to chase it down the ridge, across the road, through the woods, across the river and finally was able to finish him off. " I know I hit him" I know I hit him" SMH..... My father in law was so bent on the iddy bitty group he got that there was no light at the end of the tunnel for either one of them !
Not quite sure how to best respond...
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowle ... umane.html gives a good overview of some common issues that exist with mono bullets and thereby highlights the benefits of lead core bullets. Writer is a NZ hunter, so his approach is a little different than most North American hunters - for example he anneals Hornady cup n core bullets to give them better weight retention / penetration.
I do shoot some highpower matches 72+ rounds or more between cleanings. Chizzler / Townsend Ground Squirrel control in Utah, I might shoot 200+ rounds in a morning. So fouling can be an issue for a lot of shooters. Big game hunting, I have seen petals break off of mono bullets with resulting long blood trails and lost animals. I have seen cup n core bullets likewise fail by exploding on large bones and failing to expand at longer ranges. As such, I believe both bullet types (mono and lead core) have a place.
For me, I like lead cores below about 2900-3000 fps. Above that and a mono bullet makes a lot more sense in my mind, copper vs. gilding would be a matter of intended game with caliber, bullet weight and velocity. Copper bullets are often designed around penetration such that they are suitable for heavy or dangerous game, while the gilding mono bullets often prioritize petal expansion on medium game. But of course their are exceptions.
Edited to add: Historically mono bullets have a much smaller optimum expansion range regarding velocity. Make the petals to big or thin for easy expansion (light game or low velocity at longer range) then the more likely they are to fold back or break off at high velocity or when encountering bone. The opposite is true as well - make the petals too thick or short and they won't expand well on light game or lower velocities. Bonded lead tends to give a wider optimum expansion range, but the mono's are getting fairly close.
Shot placement as you noted is key, in my area we prefer shoulder shots to anchor the game asap. Heart and or lung shot deer have a tendency to become lost in thick swamps and some undesirable aspects of the area makes the trade off - time for burger meat - typically worth while.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowle ... umane.html gives a good overview of some common issues that exist with mono bullets and thereby highlights the benefits of lead core bullets. Writer is a NZ hunter, so his approach is a little different than most North American hunters - for example he anneals Hornady cup n core bullets to give them better weight retention / penetration.
I do shoot some highpower matches 72+ rounds or more between cleanings. Chizzler / Townsend Ground Squirrel control in Utah, I might shoot 200+ rounds in a morning. So fouling can be an issue for a lot of shooters. Big game hunting, I have seen petals break off of mono bullets with resulting long blood trails and lost animals. I have seen cup n core bullets likewise fail by exploding on large bones and failing to expand at longer ranges. As such, I believe both bullet types (mono and lead core) have a place.
For me, I like lead cores below about 2900-3000 fps. Above that and a mono bullet makes a lot more sense in my mind, copper vs. gilding would be a matter of intended game with caliber, bullet weight and velocity. Copper bullets are often designed around penetration such that they are suitable for heavy or dangerous game, while the gilding mono bullets often prioritize petal expansion on medium game. But of course their are exceptions.
Edited to add: Historically mono bullets have a much smaller optimum expansion range regarding velocity. Make the petals to big or thin for easy expansion (light game or low velocity at longer range) then the more likely they are to fold back or break off at high velocity or when encountering bone. The opposite is true as well - make the petals too thick or short and they won't expand well on light game or lower velocities. Bonded lead tends to give a wider optimum expansion range, but the mono's are getting fairly close.
Shot placement as you noted is key, in my area we prefer shoulder shots to anchor the game asap. Heart and or lung shot deer have a tendency to become lost in thick swamps and some undesirable aspects of the area makes the trade off - time for burger meat - typically worth while.
- Thread starter
- #6
behind the shoulder mid ship.... with a expansion at it's best, puts an animal in shock.. due to main arteries branching every which way but loose.. and really disconnects motorskills.
That's thin skinned.. critters. Heavier game, getting through thick matted hair, hide, and possibly bone.. then a more premium bullet is needed. John Nosler needed a bullet to punch through a Mooses' shoulder scapula.. some thick heavy bone thier.
Visibility?? Guess That was his only shot... could he have passed up on that moose and not used a 375 H&H?.. considering the amount of game available, I would say yes. So if he did would he have the need to go to a lathe for a better bullet? Doesn't sound like it.
So like you said....their is a time and a place for certain scenarios that take certain measures taking certain bullets? I don't think so.
I watch vids on you tube of people having to take multiple shots with magnums to put down thier quarry. And read a well known, now deceased guide talk about shot placement with conventional cup and core bullet. One shot kill he writes.... with a .270 150 grain speer bullet. And he also states that medium caliber rifles are all that's needed.
That's thin skinned.. critters. Heavier game, getting through thick matted hair, hide, and possibly bone.. then a more premium bullet is needed. John Nosler needed a bullet to punch through a Mooses' shoulder scapula.. some thick heavy bone thier.
Visibility?? Guess That was his only shot... could he have passed up on that moose and not used a 375 H&H?.. considering the amount of game available, I would say yes. So if he did would he have the need to go to a lathe for a better bullet? Doesn't sound like it.
So like you said....their is a time and a place for certain scenarios that take certain measures taking certain bullets? I don't think so.
I watch vids on you tube of people having to take multiple shots with magnums to put down thier quarry. And read a well known, now deceased guide talk about shot placement with conventional cup and core bullet. One shot kill he writes.... with a .270 150 grain speer bullet. And he also states that medium caliber rifles are all that's needed.
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 18,139
- 7,878
From Nosler's web site:
"In the fall of 1946, a stubborn, mud-caked Canadian moose failed to go down, despite a well placed shot from John Nosler’s 300 H&H. On the way home from that trip, John started thinking about a way to make a bullet that would perform well every time, no matter what the size of the game or the shot angle.
Over the next year, he experimented with bullet design, finally settling on a unique, dual core bullet that was really the first Partition®. The following fall, John and his friend, Clarence Purdie, both killed moose with one shot using John’s new bullet. In 1948 the Nosler Partition Bullet Company was formed."
No mention of a 375 H&H on the hunt, it was the 300 H&H, a fairly mild 30 cal magnum by today's standards. Just a point of clarification.
Regards, Guy
"In the fall of 1946, a stubborn, mud-caked Canadian moose failed to go down, despite a well placed shot from John Nosler’s 300 H&H. On the way home from that trip, John started thinking about a way to make a bullet that would perform well every time, no matter what the size of the game or the shot angle.
Over the next year, he experimented with bullet design, finally settling on a unique, dual core bullet that was really the first Partition®. The following fall, John and his friend, Clarence Purdie, both killed moose with one shot using John’s new bullet. In 1948 the Nosler Partition Bullet Company was formed."
No mention of a 375 H&H on the hunt, it was the 300 H&H, a fairly mild 30 cal magnum by today's standards. Just a point of clarification.
Regards, Guy
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 18,139
- 7,878
And the cool thing is - if someone wants a bullet with a pure copper jacket - or even a bullet made of nothing but copper - they're certainly available!
We have got such a tremendous selection of excellent bullets available to us anymore. It's actually pretty amazing.
So many different types of bullets have been made, so many different designs.
We've come a long way from a rock in a sling. :grin:
I don't have any complaints with the incredible variety of bullets available to us anymore. Most times when I've shot game, it's dropped quickly, with massive damage. I did try the Barnes TSX early on from my 25-06, and moved on from it. But they've evolved into a better bullet over the years too. So many good choices!
Some folks like pure copper & pure lead. Most of us are happy with gilding metal jacketed bullets that have been the standard now for decades - usually with very good results. Bonded bullets and Partition type bullets are available. Some want a solid bullet with no lead core (or are required to use such a bullet).
I've used a wide variety of bullets on game - and am satisfied with my choices. Doesn't mean I'm not still messing around with some different choices. One of the fun things about being a handloader!
I suspect that if all we had for big game hunting was the 30-06 and a good 180 gr soft point... We'd still all get our game... Well, here in North America anyway. I've no experience on those huge beasties over in Africa, and suspect that a bigger rifle would be a wonderful idea.
Regards, Guy
We have got such a tremendous selection of excellent bullets available to us anymore. It's actually pretty amazing.
So many different types of bullets have been made, so many different designs.
We've come a long way from a rock in a sling. :grin:
I don't have any complaints with the incredible variety of bullets available to us anymore. Most times when I've shot game, it's dropped quickly, with massive damage. I did try the Barnes TSX early on from my 25-06, and moved on from it. But they've evolved into a better bullet over the years too. So many good choices!
Some folks like pure copper & pure lead. Most of us are happy with gilding metal jacketed bullets that have been the standard now for decades - usually with very good results. Bonded bullets and Partition type bullets are available. Some want a solid bullet with no lead core (or are required to use such a bullet).
I've used a wide variety of bullets on game - and am satisfied with my choices. Doesn't mean I'm not still messing around with some different choices. One of the fun things about being a handloader!
I suspect that if all we had for big game hunting was the 30-06 and a good 180 gr soft point... We'd still all get our game... Well, here in North America anyway. I've no experience on those huge beasties over in Africa, and suspect that a bigger rifle would be a wonderful idea.
Regards, Guy
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- #9
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 18,139
- 7,878
:mrgreen:
No kidding - so many choices anymore... Love it! But I do tend to stick with my "standard" loads most of the time.
Regards, Guy
No kidding - so many choices anymore... Love it! But I do tend to stick with my "standard" loads most of the time.
Regards, Guy
A
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slickrem":b39qa8wj said:
That said...I've put a veritable mountain of meat on the ground with a Corelokt. We've got better choices now, but back in the day...they flat worked (and still will).
I've hunted with Sierra's, both the gameking and prohunter for most of my 61 years out in the field. At one time or another I've tried bullets from all the Bullet makers but my hunting has been around Whitetails and Elk so I ended up with a bullet that works for me. Haven't tried the gamechanger but I'm sure it's great. I can honestly say that I've switched back and forth between the 225 Grain prohunter and the 225 grain Partition for Elk and both are winners although I get more retained weight with the Prohunter.
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- #13
Gilding jackets are used because they are more cost-effective and offer better performance than pure copper. The alloy core improves strength and accuracy compared to pure lead.
I tried Barnes when they first came out and the fouling was terrible. I've shot Sierra for many years and found fouling at a minimum. I've had very good luck with the old style bullets and am somewhat hesitant to get rid of what works.
