bullet performance on big game discussion

[SJB358]

Well said, these days I shoot a bunch of BBCs cause I’ve got them and they seem to plant animals real well. The Scirocco is a darned sleeper and as near a BBC I’ve found for wide flat expansion along with a BC advantage. I can’t imagine any of the great premiums letting me down though. It is nice to test them a little before putting them into an animal and have reasonable certainty of what is going into flesh.

Hagel is the darned reason I’m so fond of these Bitterroots... from all I read he raved about them. Over the past few years of using them I see why now.

They are old stock. Ones I’ve picked up a 100 here, 40 here. Getting a decent pile of them now. I’ve never shot a group with a BBC. Up to this point I’ve use a same weight Partition and once it shot the best I just match the average speed with the BBC. Out to 500 they’ve been spot on. This year I’m using the Woodleighs and BBCs from my 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum.[/quote]
I understand. great when that works. the hornady 225 spire point mixes holes w/ the 225 partitions at any range in my .338. what speed do the 160's and 175's clock in the mash?[/quote]

Roughly 3050-3100 with the 175’s and 3200-3250 with 160’s.

 

[SJB358]

BTW - I think weight retention is very over-rated...

Tissue destruction, of vital organs. That's what I'm after. Enough penetration to get in there to the heart & lungs, maybe even breaking some bones. But honestly, I don't really care what the bullet weighs once it's killed the animal. It just needs enough mass to get in there and destroy important parts.

Guy

Totally agree on that, but I’m not a huge believer that actual fragments, meaning those tiny bits of lead and copper do much in the way of true damage. Just my little opinion but I think the expansion of a Ballistic Tip, Partition, ELD, Berger, going very wide when it starts to expand causes that wide killing then it shears or breaks off and gets narrower. If you think of pushing your wide open hand through water and slowly closing it to a fist is sorta what I see. You push a lot water with a wide open hand and much less when you start closing your paw. I think weight retention assists with a bullet that opens wide and doesn’t break apart because it retains its momentum in animals.

Sorry, I geek out on this stuff. Love to talk Bullet performance.

 

[Elkman]

SJB358, Sorry, I geek out on this stuff

You should get into a discussion with him about barrels its even worse. :grin:

 

[SJB358]

SJB358, Sorry, I geek out on this stuff

You should get into a discussion with him about barrels its even worse. :grin:

Just ask Bill how much better and efficient the WSM's are than those old long and powder hungry full length Win Mags are :lol:

Or how much better the 270 is than the 30-06... :mrgreen:

 

[Guy Miner]

Ya, I used to really obsess over bullet design & performance. It's fascinating.

Somewhere along the way I figured out that an expanding bullet through the lungs pretty well handles most hunting situations.

The particular bullet in question wasn't really all that big a deal, just like the cartridge of choice wasn't that big a deal. Put an expanding bullet through both lungs of a critter, and you've done well as a hunter.

Now - if you're intent on slamming that bullet through the shoulder of a big bull elk... Ya, selecting a tougher bullet is a good idea I'd think!

Guy

 

[diverdown]

For as long as I remember I've been using Sierra 165 Gamekings in my 30.06 and 140 Gamekings in my 7-08 to take Whitetails. Their weight retention isn't as high as some other bullets but then again I haven't had any deer leave after being hit with these bullets. The bullets that I've recovered have sometimes separated from their jacket but again, I have a dead deer.

 

[Europe]

Ya, I used to really obsess over bullet design & performance. It's fascinating.

Somewhere along the way I figured out that an expanding bullet through the lungs pretty well handles most hunting situations.

The particular bullet in question wasn't really all that big a deal, just like the cartridge of choice wasn't that big a deal. Put an expanding bullet through both lungs of a critter, and you've done well as a hunter.

Now - if you're intent on slamming that bullet through the shoulder of a big bull elk... Ya, selecting a tougher bullet is a good idea I'd think!

Guy

I respect those who have knowledge of bullet design, construction and performance but I find myself in the same place as Guy. My son has hoarded away a bunch of bitterroots, in the same manner Scotty has and feels they are the finest bullet ever produced and they may be right. Aleena is a big fan of GSC, Cheyenne;s grandfather likes Woodleigh and Northfork, a good friend of mine will use nothing but Norma Oryx bullets. Here on the forum Swift, Kodiak, Barnes and Nosler are well liked bullets. I know a fellow who will only use Rhino bullets although I believe Scotty was unimpressed with their bullets.

Around a campfire in Africa I have heard long discussions about the best "solid" bullet and again there is always a difference of opinion. You fellows here tend to discuss expanding bullets far more than solids

I have had people ask me after a hunt how the bullet I used worked and I have said, apparently very well, the animal died when I shot him. I am a firm believer that a well placed shot with a bullet produced from any of the aforementioned bullet companies will seal the deal.

 

[Elkman]

Europe, I am a firm believer that a well placed shot with a bullet produced from any of the aforementioned bullet companies will seal the deal.

Zackley

 

[Guy Miner]

Maybe mule deer isn't "big" game - but it's what I normally hunt. Going to try to remember all the bullets my son and I have used on mule deer over the past 20 years or so...

50 cal, 385 gr soft lead hollow point "Great Plains" bullets
458" 405 gr Remington soft-nose flat point from 45/70
44 mag, 240 jhp Federal factory
308" 165's Nosler Ballistic Tip, Nosler Solid Base soft point, and the Partition too
257" 100 gr Barnes TSX, 115 gr Berger VLD, 115 Ballistic Tip
6mm 100 gr Nosler Solid Base, 95 gr Ballistic Tip

I've probably forgotten something. Thing is, those bullets are crazy different! From 95 - 115 gr high velocity zingers to 400+ grain big fat slow bullets... All killed just fine.

The bullet just has to make it into the "boiler room" and do significant damage. Lots of different ways to make that happen. Again - if we're talking big bull elk, or some other particularly hardy beast, then it likely makes sense to use a tougher bullet for better penetration... To get into that danged "boiler room."

Guy

 

[Europe]

Bill, Guy and the thread creator, Hodgeman

The 300 gr Winchester factory ammo's bullet performance used in the 405 seemed to work o.k. for Teddy in Africa.

And no David, Dr Mike and I were not on that safari with him. lol

 

[Polaris]

Well, I'm bored, being layed up with a medical condition so I'll chime in on this regarding deer sized game.

The deer I hunt are pretty big and tough for the type, being in Northern MN, they have generous fat cap, muscle and bone. The cover is tight, and often a property boundary is near so I desire a combination of good blood trail and massive shock.

This has led me down the high velocity, light to medium for caliber, well constructed road. I've been particularly pleased with the 145 Speer Grand Slam in my .280 Rem (I believe a similar weight Partition would serve just as well) and a well made 150 soft point in my .300 Savage and the Wife's .308. Currently shooting discontinued Speer Mag tip, although I'm taking a long look at the Lapua Mega for when these are expended. All of these bullets have a relatively short profile with a blunt metplat. I've found this combination to open rapidly causing excellent trauma at first, but hold together on the back end leaving a nice exit and blood trail. Just my .02

 

[Guy Miner]

It's a pretty doggone good .02 worth! :grin:

 

[lhsako]

200 gr 30 cal Partition recovered from bear:

260 gr 375 cal AccuBond recovered from bear:

165 gr 30 cal Ballistic Tip recovered from mule deer:

All performed well, and obviously managed to kill the animal just fine. :grin:

Guy

>>>> the right bullets for the right job !

 

[lhsako]

Well said, these days I shoot a bunch of BBCs cause I’ve got them and they seem to plant animals real well. The Scirocco is a darned sleeper and as near a BBC I’ve found for wide flat expansion along with a BC advantage. I can’t imagine any of the great premiums letting me down though. It is nice to test them a little before putting them into an animal and have reasonable certainty of what is going into flesh.

Hagel is the darned reason I’m so fond of these Bitterroots... from all I read he raved about them. Over the past few years of using them I see why now.

They are old stock. Ones I’ve picked up a 100 here, 40 here. Getting a decent pile of them now. I’ve never shot a group with a BBC. Up to this point I’ve use a same weight Partition and once it shot the best I just match the average speed with the BBC. Out to 500 they’ve been spot on. This year I’m using the Woodleighs and BBCs from my 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum.

I understand. great when that works. the hornady 225 spire point mixes holes w/ the 225 partitions at any range in my .338. what speed do the 160's and 175's clock in the mash?[/quote]

Roughly 3050-3100 with the 175’s and 3200-3250 with 160’s.[/quote]
>>>> uncle Bob is smiling at those velocities from the happy hunting grounds ; )

 

[lhsako]

Well, I'm bored, being layed up with a medical condition so I'll chime in on this regarding deer sized game.

The deer I hunt are pretty big and tough for the type, being in Northern MN, they have generous fat cap, muscle and bone. The cover is tight, and often a property boundary is near so I desire a combination of good blood trail and massive shock.

This has led me down the high velocity, light to medium for caliber, well constructed road. I've been particularly pleased with the 145 Speer Grand Slam in my .280 Rem (I believe a similar weight Partition would serve just as well) and a well made 150 soft point in my .300 Savage and the Wife's .308. Currently shooting discontinued Speer Mag tip, although I'm taking a long look at the Lapua Mega for when these are expended. All of these bullets have a relatively short profile with a blunt metplat. I've found this combination to open rapidly causing excellent trauma at first, but hold together on the back end leaving a nice exit and blood trail. Just my .02

>> for deer,I shoot Ab 130 in my .270 and 150 tip in my .300WM. the tips in .308 seem very well constructed! the 130 tips in .270 seem "softer". hence I use the AB for the reason you state.

 

[SJB358]

>>>> uncle Bob is smiling at those velocities from the happy hunting grounds ; )

For danged sure! I always wondered about the Mashburn from reading about it as a young kid. When I found out how easy it was, it was a no brainer. The excellent 300 Win brass available makes it even better these days.

 

[1100 Remington Man]

The more I hunt the more I see myself going to tougher bullets and heaver bullets. Yes I have had some failures mostly due to being close range.
.264 Win Mag and Nosler 120gr BT has been fantastic on Deer & Antelope beyond 100 yards but inside 100 yards I'm pushing it beyond its limit. Yes Nosler's advice for there bullets is correct so I'm moving up to 130gr AB to slow it down a little and tougher. I still am looking for a flat trajectory.
6mm Rem and Hornady's 100gr BTSP with Max load of Reloader 22 has been excellent on Deer & Antelope and one of my most accurate load's. But again inside 100 yards it is to soft, So after seeing a Picture of cross sectioned .243 bullets I am going to try Nosler's 95gr BT because it looked to be constructed tougher I wished it was a AB.
I also look at ammunition from the point of view what is a couple bucks most of my expense is Fuel in my truck when I head out West.
My 300 H&H I use to use Nosler Partition's 180gr and while they worked as advertised, I hated the flattened nose tips I would get on them in the magazine box so I moved on to 180gr AB.
I will say 98% of the time the standard cup and core bullets work just fine, it's just when it's Fast and Close it looks like a Bomb went off and Yes some times it required another shot.
I think Nosler has it Correct on there Recomendations on there Bullets for FPS range. Hard to imagine a Bullet Manfacture having it correct but yes they have Way more experience than Me and they know what they are talking about.

 

[dougduey]

I shoot a variety of calibers and, therefore, a variety of bullets and bullet weights. What I've found is that it's best to understand what you're hunting and at what distance shots you should expect. Then you can pick the best bullet for the situation. If you want to use a monolithic/all copper bullet, then you better be picking the next grain size down from your usual and be pushing it at a higher velocity in order to get the performance out of it. I shoot a 140gr E-tip out of a 7 STW traveling at 3300 fps. It's devastating on the antelope and mule deer I've shot with it (from 350-425 yards). Lungs were pretty much liquified and the animals either dropped or took a step and dropped. The 95gr BT in my 243 flipped over the antelope I shot with it at 250 yards. I shoot a Berger 140gr VLD out of my 6.5-284 Norma. I had a long discussion with one of the ballisticians at Berger about terminal performance with their bullets. He told me that the hunting VLD's work best from 3000 fps down to 2000 fps, and he said to shoot for a double lung shot. They are meant to fragment and work best if you're not hitting the shoulder. He said they have had reported failures on big magnum cartridges with high velocities when hitting animals at close range. My first rifle is a 30-06 and it shot nothing but Remington Core-Locs until I started reloading Partitions for it. Everything died that I've shot with that rifle. My elk rifle is a 300 WSM. I shot multiple elk with a 180gr AB for years and everything was dead within feet of where I shot it (from 90-450 yards). I did change over to a 200gr ELDX this past October and it was Bang Flop for a nice 5x5 New Mexico bull elk at 105 yards
I either shoot for both lungs or I put one middle of the body on the front edge of the front leg to hit the autonomic nerve complex..........they drop like a sack of potatoes if you hit them here. Like everyone has said, shot placement is the key.
If you want a good read on the terminal performance of my bullets in multiple calibers, check out Nathan Foster's research on ballisticstudies.com. It opened my eyes

 

[Blkram]

The first three sentences of dougduey's post above really sums it up!

Realistic expectations of your choice of cartirdge/bullet combination for the game you are hunting and the environment in which it lives, along with bullet placement is going to amount to your experience and satisfaction with that choice. Over the past few years, I have seen too many posts where people base their opinion off of one single experience and are quick to applaud/condemn the bullet for great/poor performance. One of's happen (manufactural defects or anomalies in game animals character). True performance is found through repeated use. And all too often, the person is the biggest variable that is not mentioned or discussed. People need to be more honest, or more open to admitting that they are the biggest uncontrolled variable in the equation, before quickly and could have been a contributor (good or bad) in the final outcome.

At the end of the day, if the animal is harvested quickly and cleanly, then the cartridge/bullet, and hunter combination, did their jobs.

 

[350JR]

Gawd I love this type of a post!

Ask 10 enthusiasts the same question and you'll get 11 answers. and there won't be a "wrong" one in the bunch!

I'm a throw-back to the days when the bullet performance choices we have now just flat did not exist.

Robert Ruark and I would have gotten along handsomely but one cannot come up with ANYTHING but respect for W.D.M. “Karamojo” Bell and his results with his "dinky" .275 Rigby. (7x57)

Both knew what "worked for them" and therein lies the answer. I feel using what you have the most confidence in, whatever your reasons are, is THE combo to use.

Me and o'l Robert..........we like to USE ENOUGH GUN.
I'll argue all the pros the faster medium bores have hunting with good, solid performing bullets......but when all MY cards are on the table, I'm using a big bore and a big bullet, one that I've shot enough to say " That critter is going nowhere.......but DOWN!"

Plus I like to "eat right up to the bullet hole". :wink:

When YOU know it's going to work....you feel that way for GREAT reasons, even if someone else thinks differently.

Good heavens don't post such a question on social media.........there would be a virtual knock-down drag out free-for-all....and several heart attacks. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Another notch of respect for this forum, IMHO.

God Bless