CRF - how important is it?

[Guy Miner]

Controlled Round Feed - how important is it in a rifle - to you. And why?

I grew up shooting a pair of controlled round feed 30-06 rifles, a Springfield and a "Model of 1917. Also time to time I was happy to shoot a Mauser 98, re-barreled to .257 Wby.

But, my first rifle - actually mine - not Dad's or Grandpa's rifle - was a Rem 700. Push feed. Hmm. Interesting. Good rifle. 40+ years later, still a good rifle and has never bobbled. Same with my Rem 700 "sniper" rifle that's had literally thousands of rounds put through various .308 Win barrels. It still feeds, shoots, and extracts just fine. Smooth & slick.

Seems that there are high quality rifles built in both push-feed and CRF.

To my thought - as long as the rifle is trouble free & accurate - I really don't care if it's push feed or CRF.

I've actually had more trouble getting 100% reliability from a few CRF Winchester Model 70's than I ever did getting 100% reliability from push-feed Winchester 70's or push-feed Rem 700's.

CRF fans I know seem to immediately start talking about greater reliability and how important CRF is on a "dangerous game rifle" or a "serious hunting rifle." Okay - I hear ya, but consider:

The famous African Professional Hunters Harry Selby and Finn Aagaard both used push-feed Winchester Model 70's in .458 Win mag extensively. They also had controlled round feed rifles.

Our military snipers have mostly been served with the push-feed Remington 700. Same with law enforcement.

I honestly believe that the whole "controlled round feed" vs "push feed" is largely a matter of individual taste.

Your thoughts?

Guy

 

[Anonymous]

My experience mirrors yours... a tempest in a teapot.

Much ado is made about CRF rifles, but I think it really comes down to the quality of the individual rifle. I've had a bunch of CRF and push feed rifles...and if the maker did their job right- they both worked just fine! And if they didn't...you should have figured that out well before going toe-to-toe with something big and toothy!

I will say that in the "ye olde" days when ammunition quality was much more suspect, having a big giant extractor was maybe more important than today. With the older extremely temperature sensitive powders, you could get sticky extraction pretty easily in the hot tropical sun. If you need a mallet to open the action, a CRF is likely more desirable. Of course, at heart- that's an ammo problem...not a rifle problem.

I think the whole "feed upside down, underwater, on the moon, full of blood, etc, etc." was just a bunch of marketing hooey cooked up to when we really had two major makers producing the different systems trying to sell one or the other.

I had a bunch of CRFs..and they worked fine, but my collection has gravitated toward push feeds over the last 20 years. And they work fine too. It wasn't a conscious decision- somebody just made a rifle I liked and it happened to have whatever feed system they put in it. I will say, as ammunition is better...most makers are developing push feeds.

 

[HTDUCK]

To me, not at all.
I own one CRF rifle, an Interarms MKX mauser in 30-06.
Dad gave it to me when I was 8 years old.
The rest of the battery are all Rem 700s, Tikka's and one push feed Mdl 70.

I have no intention nor desire to hunt "dangerous game"

 

[mjcmichigan]

The only scenario where I believe CRF adds value is if you are ever racking the gun in such a position that gravity could cause a misfed.

Military snipers and hunters in the mountains (that need a second shot) would be the folks that might appreciate it.


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[Anonymous]

The only scenario where I believe CRF adds value is if you are ever racking the gun in such a position that gravity could cause a misfed.

Military snipers and hunters in the mountains (that need a second shot) would be the folks that might appreciate it.

In the interest of science... I tried it this morning. My Nosler 48, Barrett Fieldcraft, Tikka T3, Ruger American 7-08 and Steyr Scout all feed just fine fully upside down. Who'd have thunk it?

My American in .223 was dodgy upside down, but it's also a bit rough right side up.

 

[mjcmichigan]

The only scenario where I believe CRF adds value is if you are ever racking the gun in such a position that gravity could cause a misfed.

Military snipers and hunters in the mountains (that need a second shot) would be the folks that might appreciate it.

In the interest of science... I tried it this morning. My Nosler 48, Barrett Fieldcraft, Tikka T3, Ruger American 7-08 and Steyr Scout all feed just fine fully upside down. Who'd have thunk it?

My American in .223 was dodgy upside down, but it's also a bit rough right side up.

Lol. I’d have done the same at home.....my savages are all push feed, I’ve never had one not cycle, but I did buy my first CRF feed this year... I like them all!


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[truck driver]

Here we go again. >)
I grew up with a pre War M70 in the house which my brother sort of stole from me since it was my inheritance but was sold to him before my father passed. He just couldn't see me have anything my father owned but if he only knew.
Anyway I have 3 CRF rifles a M98 and 2 M77 plus a PFCRF which Win made some of and of course several PF Win and Rem and to be honest the CRF's are the only ones I have had trouble with and jam to the point they have to have the bolt removed to clear the obstruction also care must be taken that the magazine is loaded properly which can cause feed problems but that can be said with both types.
I have run the action on the Rem as fast as I could pull the trigger and work the bolt with out a glitch but can't say that for my M77s or at least one of them since I haven't had to try it with the 338Wm yet. Operator error could be some of it but then I don't practice doing it either.
Try wiggling the bolt in a 03A3 or 1917 Military rifle and you will see what I mean. Haven't tried it in a M98 so I don't no about them.
When you stop to think about it the Military doesn't use CRF weapons since they all feed from a detachable magazine or belt feed. Can't you imagine a machine gun with CRF. Probably be a jamamatic.
That big claw extractor serves for a bolt guide to keep it from binding as much as for CRF. The actions were over sized and you could push the bolt out of alignment with the frame rails in some of the earlier bolt action rifles causing them to bind up and jam with out the big extractor.
Believe it or not a 1911 pistol uses CRF because the cartridge rides up under the extractor claw to align the bullet with the chamber and holds it in place. Same principal as the Win PFCRF system.
So how important is CRF? in a sloppy made action it makes it work reliably in a close tolerance action it's not need. JMO >)

 

[SJB358]

Not real important to me, but I do like the firing controls on my M70's and it just so happens to be a CRF, so I don't balk at it.. I do like the extractor much more on my 70's than I do on the 700's, but I know of some folks that get by just fine with the 700's, but I have also seen them take a dump at a bad time.. Sako's and M16 style extractors seem to be decent insurance on them.

 

[PJGunner]

"I honestly believe that the whole "controlled round feed" vs "push feed" is largely a matter of individual taste."

I'm inclined to agree. I have to admit that three of my four customs are based on Mauser actions. The one push feeder is a Remington 660 in .308 with a now outdated H&S Precision stock made of what they called "fiberthane". The only problem it's ever given me is that little extractor ring let go.

While my customs are quite accurate, I think my push feed rifles are just as or slightly more accurate. I also think a push feed rifle is easier to make accurate than the controlled feed.

Probably, if push came to shove, I'd rather have the controlled feed if I had to face off against something that could bite back.As always, YMMV.
Paul B.

 

[Europe]

Definitely the CRF is better

1. my father said so
2. my husband said so
3. scotty prefers the pre 64 win to the post 64 win
4. Aleena says when an elephant, rhino, hippo, lion, buffalo are headed toward you she prefers not to have something that might work or will work 99 times out of a 100

my personal experience is it is not just the heat in equator countries that makes one want to use a CRF, but the combination of dust and heat which can create a problem for a push feed.

But if one is hunting Whitetails in Virginia I dont think it really matters---- but to be honest, I also have both, have used both, like both and have never had a problem with either

 

[Cleveland48]

I’ve had one model 70 CRF in 6.5x55. At you could shake it and the round would fall out [emoji848]. My 98 mauser on the other hand you can practically beat a tree with it and it won’t let go lol. I’ve also had brownings, Remington’s, Ruger 77 CRF, Ruger Americans, and one Howa. No trouble with any of the push feeds either. I’m really liking the Howa push feeds a lot these days. I really like that extractor and it’s very smooth.


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[muleman]

My 2cents.... I like the controls of my Win 70s. 3 position safety, robust extractor and fixed ejector.
The 3 position safety allows working the bolt with the firing pin secured.
The extractor has twice or thrice the surface area of most push feed guns. It also takes control of the round prior to chambering allowing the gun to be emptied without chambering, important for ADL type guns.
The fixed ejector is simple and variable. Slow and easy at the bench puts the brass in your hand; hard and fast in the field.
Cons - can't single feed directly, must be placed in mag.
It's mostly personal preference. Push feeds will feed upside down or sideways.
The smoothest action I've ever run are push feed Win 70s.

Scott

 

[Guy Miner]

Scott - I've got to admit, my push-feed Winchester Model 70 match rifle was one slick rifle. I could cycle that action so fast... Did real well with it in the rapid-fire portions of High Power matches.

Guy

 

[cloverleaf]

Well I've got a Mauser long action for a short little 250 savage cartridge. Several guys have worked on it and feeding is still not 100% bobble free. CRF has to work. When it does it works.... (profound huh???) but so does the savage in my safe, and apparently thousands upon thousands of other rifles. Was Just reading an article on the Mauser based brownings. Beautiful rifles, work flawlessly I'll bet. Yet the push feed models of the old browning didn't sell. Kind of a shame as they were built by Sako of Finnland and reportedly accurate as could be. Short answer not tremendously important, but it works. CL

 

[Blkram]

Not that important to me. Mostly a fan of push feed rifles like the model 700, but has as much to do with availability of left hand actions as anything for me. I have never had a problem feeding or extracting.

It is just coincidence that my 376 Steyr and 416 Taylor are built on CRF actions, but this was due to the availability of left hand Ruger 77's as donor rifles when looking to build these rifles. I would have been just as happy with 700's. I also have another one as a donor for a 9.3 x 62 build that will happen when I can get hold of the gunsmith I have been thinking of doing this build.

 

[Elkman]

As most here know my primary hunting rifle is a push feed model 70, and in 50+ years never a feeding malfunction. All the rifles that I use consistently are push feeds. Of course I have never hunted dangerous game so perhaps in that setting, I might change my mind. If someone offered to trade CRF for my 300 WM I would pass. My Remington tactical shoots groups consistently under 1/2 MOA, I would not trade it either. I had a pre 64 Model 70 in .270 Win, way back in the day, and traded it for something else because of the weight. But for what I hunt and where I hunt the push feeds get the job done.

 

[Guy Miner]

Was just thinking about the guides on my grizzly hunt last spring. They'd both just come from a month of guiding on Kodiak, and brought the rifles they'd carried there:

.338 Win mag SAKO
.375 H&H Rem 700

 

[truck driver]

I have two of the push feed M70s and have a theory why the action is so slick. They were mostly made from left over CRF actions and the big claw extractor was left off as the parts ran out.
If you look at the bolt body you can see the grooves left in the bolts where the big claw rode on it.
They just machined the locking lugs larger saving another step in manufacturing. So you can blame the bean counters for that slick action.

 

[ethmoid1999]

I know of only one failure with a Remington 700. My brother bought one of the 700 Classics in 338WinMag. The extractor failed and was replaced. I have several 700's and have had no problems. A few M77 Rugers and a couple of Savages. a HOWA, Mk V Weatherby and a few pre-64 Model 70's. My favorite rifle is a 1954 Model 70 in 308 just because I like it. CRF is fine but not a requirement for me. I don't hunt dangerous game and never will.