Crossroad

[Vince]

I'm in a quandary and need your help.

I have two rifles that shoot about the same, group size, and need to select one for a coues deer hunt and would like your help.

Both rifles will be pushing a Barnes bullet. The first one is the one that really calls to me. It has a walnut stock, handles like a dream, and is what I think of when I envision a hunting rifle. The second one is the more practical of the two.

Shots are longer than average in this dry desert country and tracking is hard to next to nigh impossible. Both are scoped with a Zeiss HD5 scope with a ballistic reticle.

One shoots a 210 grain Barnes TSX the other a 130 grain TSX. The heavier bullet, larger caliber, gives me an estimated velocity of 2882 fps at the muzzle. The 130 grain bullet, smaller caliber, gives an estimated muzzle velocity of 2940 fps.

The furthest distance I will shoot is 600 yards. Given that recoil is not a factor and that the furthest I will shoot is 600 yards, and that tracking is next to impossible here, looking for DRT with anything I shoot, and that I shoot both rifles with the same accuracy which would you select and why?

I worry that the .338 Win Mag may be too much gun with the bullet I have for it. I would however like to blood the rifle before next year's moose hunt however. So I eagerly await your replies to my query and you have my gratitude for taking the time to help me with my decision.

Vince

 

[Vince]

I forgot to mention that the second rifle is a 6.5x284 Norma.

 

[SJB358]

I say run the 338 Win Mag Vince. If your comfortable with it to your 600 yard range, then it'll knock deer over. You are running TTSX's in both rifles, so I would say as long as your around that 2000 FPS mark on target, both are going to work real well.

One thing to try, to see for yourself, is to fire those TTSX's using a Reduced Load around the muzzle velocity you'll encounter at your max range. Accuracy doesn't mean nothing for the test, only FPS. If the 338 expands at your impacts speeds, it'll work.

Good luck, you have two great rifles and seemingly great loads. Can't wait to hear how you make out.

 

[truck driver]

I say run the 338 Win Mag Vince. If your comfortable with it to your 600 yard range, then it'll knock deer over. You are running TTSX's in both rifles, so I would say as long as your around that 2000 FPS mark on target, both are going to work real well.

One thing to try, to see for yourself, is to fire those TTSX's using a Reduced Load around the muzzle velocity you'll encounter at your max range. Accuracy doesn't mean nothing for the test, only FPS. If the 338 expands at your impacts speeds, it'll work.

Good luck, you have two great rifles and seemingly great loads. Can't wait to hear how you make out.

Can't beat that info right there.

 

[DrMike]

Since the differential in velocity is minimal, I'd go with the greater frontal area and increased mass to deliver as much energy on target as possible. The 338 WM will deliver good upset blow to a Coues deer.

 

[Vince]

Since the differential in velocity is minimal, I'd go with the greater frontal area and increased mass to deliver as much energy on target as possible. The 338 WM will deliver good upset blow to a Coues deer.

That's what I was thinking but am concerned that the bullet may be too tough for a ninety pound dressed out deer.

 

[DrMike]

The bullet should open, even on such a small quarry. Scotty's suggestion was excellent, however. I'd be inclined to put my mind at ease by running a test to see how the bullet performed at terminal velocity.

 

[Vince]

Fire it in to what?
There is no load I know of that will give me 1800 fps unless I place my testing media way out there.

 

[DrMike]

Build some low charge loads to give you the impact velocity you want and fire away at 15 yards or so. A maximum charge of Hodgdon H4895 is 59 grains (velocity is 2688 fps). Using Hodgdon's formula for reduced loads (http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon H4895 reduced rifle load.pdf), a sixty percent load is 35.4 grains gives a muzzle velocity of 1758 fps. Thirty-six point eight grains gives a muzzle velocity of 1818 fps. Voila! Mission accomplished.

Cartridge : .338 Win Mag.
Bullet : .338, 225, Barnes 'TSX' S 33846
Useable Case Capaci: 72.872 grain H2O = 4.732 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 42 28.32 1452 1054 13136 3884 78.4 2.266
-18.0 43 29.03 1483 1099 13647 4020 79.3 2.229
-16.0 44 29.74 1514 1145 14172 4157 80.3 2.193
-14.0 45 30.44 1544 1191 14712 4295 81.3 2.158
-12.0 46 31.15 1575 1239 15267 4432 82.2 2.124
-10.0 47 31.86 1605 1288 15836 4571 83.1 2.090
-08.0 48 32.57 1636 1337 16421 4709 84.0 2.058
-06.0 50 33.28 1666 1387 17021 4847 84.9 2.026
-04.0 51 33.98 1697 1439 17637 4985 85.8 1.995
-02.0 52 34.69 1727 1491 18268 5123 86.6 1.965
+00.0 53 35.40 1758 1544 18919 5260 87.5 1.936
+02.0 54 36.11 1788 1597 19594 5397 88.3 1.908
+04.0 55 36.82 1818 1652 20294 5533 89.0 1.880
+06.0 56 37.52 1849 1707 21021 5668 89.8 1.853
+08.0 57 38.23 1879 1763 21773 5802 90.5 1.826
+10.0 58 38.94 1909 1820 22551 5935 91.2 1.800

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 53 35.40 1862 1733 21633 5561 94.1 1.836
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 53 35.40 1638 1341 16150 4798 78.7 2.053

Cartridge : .338 Win Mag.
Bullet : .338, 225, Barnes 'TSX' S 33846
Useable Case Capaci: 72.872 grain H2O = 4.732 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 70 47.20 2253 2535 33769 7344 97.5 1.533
-18.0 72 48.38 2300 2644 35730 7518 98.1 1.499
-16.0 74 49.56 2348 2754 37792 7683 98.6 1.467
-14.0 76 50.74 2395 2865 39961 7839 99.0 1.436
-12.0 77 51.92 2441 2978 42241 7985 99.4 1.405
-10.0 79 53.10 2488 3092 44637 8121 99.6 1.376
-08.0 81 54.28 2533 3206 47157 8247 99.8 1.339
-06.0 83 55.46 2579 3322 49805 8362 100.0 1.305
-04.0 84 56.64 2623 3438 52589 8466 100.0 1.273
-02.0 86 57.82 2668 3555 55517 8563 100.0 1.241 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 88 59.00 2711 3673 58596 8658 100.0 1.212 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 90 60.18 2755 3791 61836 8751 100.0 1.182 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 91 61.36 2797 3910 65245 8842 100.0 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 93 62.54 2840 4029 68834 8932 100.0 1.128 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 95 63.72 2882 4149 72614 9019 100.0 1.102 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 97 64.90 2924 4271 76598 9105 100.0 1.077 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 88 59.00 2789 3886 68013 8370 100.0 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 88 59.00 2594 3361 49173 8902 98.7 1.308

Use the follow projection for your graduated impact velocities to test bullet performance.

Cartridge : .338 Win Mag.
Bullet : .338, 225, Barnes 'TSX' S 33846
Useable Case Capaci: 72.872 grain H2O = 4.732 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 57 38.40 1886 1777 21955 5834 90.7 1.820
-18.0 59 39.36 1927 1854 23025 6013 91.6 1.785
-16.0 60 40.32 1967 1933 24146 6189 92.5 1.751
-14.0 61 41.28 2008 2013 25317 6363 93.4 1.718
-12.0 63 42.24 2048 2095 26542 6533 94.2 1.685
-10.0 64 43.20 2088 2178 27820 6699 94.9 1.654
-08.0 66 44.16 2128 2262 29154 6861 95.6 1.624
-06.0 67 45.12 2167 2347 30546 7019 96.3 1.594
-04.0 69 46.08 2207 2433 31998 7172 96.9 1.565
-02.0 70 47.04 2246 2520 33511 7320 97.4 1.537
+00.0 71 48.00 2285 2609 35088 7463 97.9 1.510
+02.0 73 48.96 2324 2698 36731 7600 98.3 1.483
+04.0 74 49.92 2362 2788 38443 7732 98.7 1.457
+06.0 76 50.88 2400 2879 40226 7857 99.1 1.432
+08.0 77 51.84 2438 2970 42083 7975 99.3 1.407
+10.0 79 52.80 2476 3063 44017 8088 99.6 1.383

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 71 48.00 2386 2844 40773 7384 100.0 1.428
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 71 48.00 2153 2316 29558 7211 92.2 1.623

 

[Darkhorse]

I would be concerned that the 210 in the .338 would not expand adequately on a thin target like a coues deer. Most bullet manufacturers make those type of bullets for larger animals.
Example; I shot Hornady 165 gr. spire points for many years in my .300 Win. Mag. as a deer bullet. It was deadly on mature bucks and the shock dropped several DRT. But does were a different story. I was hunting a large clearcut from a platform stand with sandbags for long shots and shot a doe right through the heart, lung area. I watched her run nearly 300 yards and dissappear into thick pines. I had to track her about 50 yards into the pines only to find a perfect shot.
Same thing happened a couple of days later. My conclusion was the does were just too thin to allow much, if any, expansion.
I don't think a coues deer is any more substantial than a mature whitetail doe.
I would definitely do the test but I think I like the 6.5X284.

As far as the fancy wood stock goes, those are my feelings exactly. We only go around once and what are a few well earned dings and scratches?

 

[DrMike]

We only go around once and what are a few well earned dings and scratches?

Memories of hunts past. Beauty marks. Exclamation points. Souvenirs.

 

[Guy Miner]

I'd use the one that shot the Nosler Ballistic Tip or Nosler long-range AccuBond best... Maybe even a Berger VLD. To heck with the Barnes for long range work... :twisted:

Seriously, between the two, I'd go with the 6.5, as I'm sure I'd shoot it better than I'd shoot the medium bore magnum and I hear precision is the name of the game for your type of hunting.

Best of luck on your hunt no matter which you use. Love reading about those hunts!

Regards, Guy

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I agree with Guy...I just can't see a 338 for Coues.

 

[Thebear_78]

I tend to agree the Barnes are great for big tough game but I'd go with something softer like a Bt and even then the 338 BT are pretty tough bullets. Why not run a 120bt or 129 btlr?

 

[Oldtrader3]

How about the 129gr Partition? They will open up as low as 1800 fps.

 

[Vince]

FYI: I'm attempting to work up the Barnes LRX bullets in the 6.5x284. If I can get that worked up in time I'll go with it for sure as it's designed to expand at 1600 fps. That's better than the TSX in both of those calibers. The TSX is designed to open at 1800 fps. While only 200 fps it could mean the difference between venison backstraps for dinner and an unrecovered deer.
Decisions, decisions. ..... What is one to do?

 

[Oldtrader3]

I used the TSX for several years. They won't open much at 1800 fps, just the very tip. Good luck with the LRX.

 

[Vince]

Thank you.
The reason I went with the Barnes was because in this time of uncertainty I laid in what I could get my hands on that a local store carried. They carry Nosler too but good luck finding any on the shelf. I went with what was available.

 

[SJB358]

I believe I'd like to see either bullet in jugs at 1800 or even 2000FPS. Without seeing if they'll expand we're sorta guessing and I'm not keen on that for hunting. Wouldn't take much to work up a couple "slow loads" and try them out. It would at least give you a warm and fuzzy they'll open.

 

[Vince]

I believe I'd like to see either bullet in jugs at 1800 or even 2000FPS. Without seeing if they'll expand we're sorta guessing and I'm not keen on that for hunting. Wouldn't take much to work up a couple "slow loads" and try them out. It would at least give you a warm and fuzzy they'll open.

That's a project I'm going to work on. [emoji4]