Custom Dies ??? Is it the case ?

[Bluejay]

I am running some tests on my reloaded ammo’s lately and I have noticed that concentricity results are not that great (I am measuring with a gauge..), although I always put maximum care into all loading operations (from resizing through final bullet seating).
I do not think I can further improve with the gear I’ve got (RCBS “standard dies) as I have tried it a few times with pretty much the same results.
Bullet concentricity rarely drops below 0,10 millimeter, the average being around 0,15 to 0,20…

Accuracy is not that bad, considering the type of rifle I am using, but I would like to get the most out of it.

I do not intend to do bench rest competition, but I would like to extend my hunting range by a reasonable amount, and thus gaining confidence in my set-up, and be sure to hit the aiming target at least 9 times out to 10 out to 500 meters (550 yds.).

Do you Guys think that Custom Dies is the way to go ?

Should I eventually expect substantial improvements in accuracy, or is it just hype and not really necessary in the field ?

Which Maker/Brand would you suggest and what are the procedures to get them made ?

My rifle is a single-shot break open K95 Blaser, chambered in 6,5x57R Mauser.

Looking forward to your suggestions.

Thank you in advance.

Cheers
:wink:

 

[rick smith]

There are a number of things that go into loading concentric ammo starting with your chamber. Neck uniformity, press line up of the ram to the dies, expander ball assembly, seating stem, etc. Check the concentricity of the case after firing then after each step in your loading process. If the fired unsized case is concentric then the run out is being introduced in the loading process. Find out where in the process the run out is being produced. If the neck thickness is not uniform, you will have some run out. Find out where the problem is introduced and correct it. Don't spend $$$ unless you are unable to make correction.Rick.

 

[JD338]

I use standard dies from RCBS, Redding and Hornady and get sub MOA accuracy.
I really do not see the need for competition dies unless you are getting into a serious bench rest or extream long range rifle.

JD338

 

[Elkman]

JD338
I use standard dies from RCBS, Redding and Hornady and get sub MOA accuracy.
I really do not see the need for competition dies unless you are getting into a serious bench rest or extream long range rifle.

JD says it for me, in fact I have 40 year old RCBS dies that go with my 40 year old rifle that still shoots sub min of angle groups!! :grin:

 

[elkeater2]

There are many devices for measuring concentricity, I note you said measuring with a gauge of some kind. Where the cartridge is supported when measuring is critical, and readings will vary. Then, just to add to the mix, where the cartridge is supported when it is chambered may not be the same! One way to experiment and/or minimize the effect is to mark the brass near the web with ink to indicate the high point of the runout, then chamber and shoot with all the marks in the same position. This may make a difference.
You can also try rotating the brass during resizing by only raising the press handle enough to free up the case on completion of the downstroke (stopping before the expander button makes contact inside the neck). Rotate 180 and then resize the case body again, then pull through the expander if that's the kind of die you are using. You can also rotate the completed round after bullet seating 180 degrees and run the bullet into the seater again.

None of this may make any difference. Some brass cases may have such wall thickness variations that the case itself will revert to "banana" shape regardless of how much your sizer costs. I'm curious how much runout you're getting, but also what percentage of your loaded ammunition shows the max. Have you tried sorting and shooting based on degree of runout?

Regards,
elkeater2

 

[nodak7mm]

The others have summed it up very well, for which direction to go & things to try before you plunge in to custom dies. If I was to armchair diagnose this issue. I would look to the neck sizing button first. These dang things have a can have a major detremental effect on neck concentricty. These little buggers if not given a little loving (polish) and if your not lubing the inside of the case neck it will stretch the heck out of the neck, thus affecting out of round/concentricity. Follow Rick suggestion regarding measuring & I'll bet you find it right after the button is pulled back out of the case. Case neck wall thickness lack of uniformity aggravates this.

But just as an FYI, there is a differences between avg grade dies, competition grade dies and custom dies.
In a nutshell:
Avg standard grade dies are mass produced with off the shelf mass produced components. They can and will produce good & repetative accurate loads, but may need a little loving.. I love my Redding Standard grade dies and I really like the Forster also, avg cost 40-50$ US.
Competition dies are a step up, they tend to incorporate carbide or nitrided bushings allowing you to fine tune you neck sizing/tension. They offer higher levels of control/measurment/adjustments. I really love my Redding Comp Bushing dies. Avg cost 100-125$ US
Custom dies are just that, Custom to your cartridge & chamber and can be specific to bullet. Typically hand made for you.. Avg cost, starting at 200$
Then there are a few guys out there that will take a Standard grade die and customize it for you, for less then the price of a comp die.

The Frozen, Snow-bound Yeti of the Northern Plains.

Rod

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

I usually save custom dies for custom rifles. Unless the action has been printed, and you know the barrel is screwed on straight, the odds are you have more error in the rifle then you do in the ammo. Blazer makes a nice rifle, but it's up to you to decide if it's "custom grade" and if it could benefit from the potential increase in concentricity.

 

[Bluejay]

First off, thanks a bunch to All of you for the constructive advices.

Let me comment some of the points risen.

The Rifle : Although is no near a custom grade rifle, accuracy is very good and chamber dimensions are very well worked from the factory.
I will soon post some groups to see whether I am too optimistic or we are lined up when it comes to judging accuracy.

Run out measuring on fired cases shows they are better than loaded rounds prior to firing; thus, I would exclude it's the Gun's fault.

Case prep : After tumbling, I run all cases in a decapping Die and clean the flash hole, firstly with the Lee tool on a drill and finishing with the RCBS hand tool.
Then I blow all the cases with a air gun.

Lubing : I run some oil inside the necks, making sure it does not spread on the outer part of the necks, than lube the pad and roll 10 cases each time.

Resizing : I run the lubed cases into the Die with regular movement and I try to be particularly careful when stroking back through the expander ball.

Degreasing : I pass all cases through some rags at first, and then clean them with some alcool and let them dry a fair amount of time.

Trimming : If needed, I run the cases into my Lyman trimmer (hand operated) and deburring tool.
I blow all the cases with air gun, again.

Then insert the primers.

Bullet seating : after loading the powder, cases are run through the seater die, trying to get the bullet as straight as possible from the beginning, than I slowly move up the piston until I am feeling the bullet gets in contact with the die and then continue slowly and regularly until final inserting is reached.

Am I doing it correctly or do I need to improve on some steps ?

Thanks
:wink:

 

[rick smith]

Now you need to find where you are introducing a loss in concentricity. Use a different fired case for each step. Remove the expander ball assembly from the die, polish the expander ball while it is out of the die, size a case and check concentricity. If all is well, return the expander ball assembly to the die don't tighten the lock nuts on the assembly. Run the next case into the die. With the ram in the upmost position screw the asembly down until the primer is removed and the expander ball is not hitting the bottom of the case. As you remove the case from the die stop when contact is made between the expander ball and the case neck. Holding slight pressure on the case, tighten the retaining nuts on the assembly. This should line up the expander ball assembly with the die that you have already checked. For the seater, your die probably has a built in crimper which you don't want to hit the case mouth as you seat the bullet. Use an empty case, screw the die down until it hits the case mouth, back the die out one turn and tighten the lock ring. Using a loaded or dummy case with no or as little run out as possible, turn the seating stem out so that it will not touch the bullet. Run the loaded/dummy round into the die and screw the seating stem down until it makes solid contact with the bullet, tighten the retaining nut on the seater stem. Let us know if it helps.Rick.

 

[Bluejay]

Thanks again.

I will surely check those issues out tonight.
I am going to put the decapping rod on a drill and lightly polish the expander nut with some fine sand paper.

Here below you can see what I'd call some good groups with my Blaser K95 :

100 meters (110 yds.) - 139 grs. Lapua Scenar Match - 5 Shots

100 meters (110 yds.) - 130 grs. Nosler AccuBond - 5 Shots

300 meters (330 yds.) - 139 grs. Lapua Scenar Match - 8 Shots

Each square on the target equals to 1 centimeter.

Very happy with the 100 meters groups, not so with the 300...


I am going to check the runout in all steps mentioned by Rick and post the results.


Cheers
:wink:

 

[DrMike]

The simplest explanation would appear to be that the wind is gusting to open up groups at 300 meters. Your 300 meter groups is not much over MOA (~ 6 cm); it is very close to your fine 100 meter groups (~ 2 cm). When you shot the group at 800 meters, did you dope the wind? What were the flags telling you? Your hand loading technique does not seem to be flawed, but it is quite possible that wind currents are playing havoc with your groups at longer distance, though they are not grossly exaggerated.

 

[Elkman]

Have you worked with you overall length ? sometimes a little adjustment OAL will reduce the size a little! :grin:

 

[Bluejay]

The simplest explanation would appear to be that the wind is gusting to open up groups at 300 meters. Your 300 meter groups is not much over MOA (~ 6 cm); it is very close to your fine 100 meter groups (~ 2 cm). When you shot the group at 300 meters, did you dope the wind? What were the flags telling you? Your hand loading technique does not seem to be flawed, but it is quite possible that wind currents are playing havoc with your groups at longer distance, though they are not grossly exaggerated.

Mike, no, I did not dope the wind , but it is very likely that wind played its role...

I recall it was not that bad the day I was shooting this group, even though I could feel some breeze.
Target was placed in a narrow valley, normally shielded from the high winds, but not from some currents originated by the river nearby.
This "currents" blow from 2 o'clock, thus some deviations of point of impact to the left is understandable, although I have no idea if this amount falls within standards.
Additionally, I was shooting prone with a "not too perfect" rest.
On the "plus" side, I had a very good riflescope mounted (Zeiss Victory 6-24x borrowed from a Friend) with awesome glass ( I could see the holes through the scope @ 300 meters).

To sum it up, I believe there is some room for improvement @ 300, partially due to a light wind playing and not a perfect rest.

But still, runuot is a fact, and I would like to improve on this aspect as much as possible, trying to eliminate this potential error, at least :wink:

 

[SJB358]

Your 300 yard groups don't look bad at all. I would think at 300 with a 2 o'clock wind you are getting a little wind messing with your groups. It looks like your reloading process is identical to mine, not that I am great at it, but I am consistently decent. I would just watch the wind and try to shoot between gusts if possible. If you can't your groups are still plenty good for most hunting and will probably tighten more as you practice further out. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

It is possible to shoot between gusts. The wind today was gusting to 50 km/hr from 10 o'clock when I shot these groups with a 300 RUM I was working on.

I was also shooting a 243 which gave me MOA groups, and a 270 WSM (with factory ammo) that shot 0.5 MOA. I will confess that I was glad to quit early because the gusts were becoming more intense, eventually reaching about 70 km/hr.

 

[Elkman]

Bluejay

You asked about your reloading technique. I have been a reloader for many years and am much less detailed than many here. However I do get very good groups and have only had two misfires in all of my years. A couple of observations in your reloading process which you may want to think about. We will also hear from others. I have become more deatailed by listening to others here, and many here have very complex process's. Do you tumble after every firing ?? I tumble probably every 5 or 6 cycles. I noticed also that you seem to handle each case several times. I am sure that each and ever one is beautiful and almost perfect.
I lube, size, check length and trim, clean primer pockets, wipe with rag, wash hands, prime and load. I have never in my life checked for concentricity. In additon I have a bent wire that I run down the inside of the case to check for seperation on the inside of belted cartridges. As I said only two misfires and I have "never" left a case stuck in a rifle. Nor do I ream the outside nor inside of the case neck. I didn't even track the number of loads per case until I came on the forum. I am a hunter not a target shooter. I strive for 1", 100 yard groups and get that with 90% or more of my rifles. If you love your proces and take great satisification turning out beautifully near perfect ammo then I see nothing wrong with your process. If it seems tedious and you would like to shorten it up timewse you might consider some of what I said.
I am headed for PT have a great day your groups are fine!!!

 

[Bluejay]

Now you need to find where you are introducing a loss in concentricity. Use a different fired case for each step. Remove the expander ball assembly from the die, polish the expander ball while it is out of the die, size a case and check concentricity. If all is well, return the expander ball assembly to the die don't tighten the lock nuts on the assembly. Run the next case into the die. With the ram in the upmost position screw the asembly down until the primer is removed and the expander ball is not hitting the bottom of the case. As you remove the case from the die stop when contact is made between the expander ball and the case neck. Holding slight pressure on the case, tighten the retaining nuts on the assembly. This should line up the expander ball assembly with the die that you have already checked. For the seater, your die probably has a built in crimper which you don't want to hit the case mouth as you seat the bullet. Use an empty case, screw the die down until it hits the case mouth, back the die out one turn and tighten the lock ring. Using a loaded or dummy case with no or as little run out as possible, turn the seating stem out so that it will not touch the bullet. Run the loaded/dummy round into the die and screw the seating stem down until it makes solid contact with the bullet, tighten the retaining nut on the seater stem. Let us know if it helps.Rick.

Last night I have tried to do what you've suggested....and adjusted the dies according to your notes...
Then, I've got 10 "clean" cases (fired twice) out of the box and measured them prior to doing anything.
I have done it the average way....sum the 10 values and divided by 10.
Results : Average runout of 3,1/100 of a millimeter

I carefully run them through the resizing Die and measured again.
Average runout went up to 3,7/100 of a millimeter

I think there is some small issue with the resizer Die, but the biggest problem comes up when I seat the bullets...
I have done some testing on dummies and runout is increasing...

Today I have used another resizing Die (same brand and type) and I've got better results than using mine. This one though was set to touch the ram on its way up, while mine stays a bit away (I have moved it up a tiny bit, just to touch the shoulder case...).

Also, with this Die much more pressure was needed..

Probably, it does full body resizing, while the other does only neck and shoulder.
Could it be that it lines up better with the Die, because the case goes further in ? ...this way getting less runout ?

Cheers
:mrgreen:

 

[Bluejay]

Bluejay

You asked about your reloading technique. I have been a reloader for many years and am much less detailed than many here. However I do get very good groups and have only had two misfires in all of my years. A couple of observations in your reloading process which you may want to think about. We will also hear from others. I have become more deatailed by listening to others here, and many here have very complex process's. Do you tumble after every firing ?? I tumble probably every 5 or 6 cycles. I noticed also that you seem to handle each case several times. I am sure that each and ever one is beautiful and almost perfect.
I lube, size, check length and trim, clean primer pockets, wipe with rag, wash hands, prime and load. I have never in my life checked for concentricity. In additon I have a bent wire that I run down the inside of the case to check for seperation on the inside of belted cartridges. As I said only two misfires and I have "never" left a case stuck in a rifle. Nor do I ream the outside nor inside of the case neck. I didn't even track the number of loads per case until I came on the forum. I am a hunter not a target shooter. I strive for 1", 100 yard groups and get that with 90% or more of my rifles. If you love your proces and take great satisification turning out beautifully near perfect ammo then I see nothing wrong with your process. If it seems tedious and you would like to shorten it up timewse you might consider some of what I said.
I am headed for PT have a great day your groups are fine!!!

I hear you Man ! :mrgreen: ...and I understand your point.

I just want to get the most out of my gear, to eliminate any possible error and leave it only up to me :wink:

I do not like too much to take longer shots, but unfortunately sometimes it's the only opportunity to be successful...
And when I do, I'd want my confidence in my rifle, scope and ammunition to be 100%....no doubts.
To "stretch the limits" I want to be prepared :mrgreen:
...and there are already too many variables out there.

I consider it also as a form of respect towards the animal I am hunting.
I want no lucky shots.... :wink:

Cheers
:wink:

 

[Elkman]

Bluejay

Glad that upi did understand I was trying to be very tactful and know that there are lots of ways to get the jobe done and most of them not necessarly mine. I respect folks that are very detailed and want as much perfection as possible. There are several here whom I know that are of similar mind. Hope you get what you are expecting out of the rifle.

If not Scotty might make you a great deal on a 25-06 !!!!!!

 

[SJB358]

Good try buddy! I sold that pig! Got a new M70 25-06 on the way I hope. Scotty