E-tips willn't group

[Murphdog]

I recently bought a new Winchester Exteme Weather in 30-06 to replace my old rifle that was stolen this summer. It shoots the reloads suprising well that were for my old rifle. Because it was a new rifle I thought that it was a chance to try the new E-tips. I bought a box of 180 grains. When I opened the box there was a note from the lab saying to start with the bottom load and not go beyond the mid-level load. I was curious as to why. Well I loaded up some test rounds and quess what ? Using Reloader 22 the bottom 57 grain load was ok. As I worked up to the mid load the groups started looking more like a buckshot pattern then a rifle grouping. I tryed some 165 grain ballistic tips (62 grains of reloader 22)that I had and the group closed right down to normal.

What are other folks expirencing with E-tips and is this typical. Do powders with a faster burn rate work better? Should I just go back to the tried and true partions for my elk loads.

 

[JD338]

The E-Tips like a lot of jump. Load them .100 off the lands.

JD338

 

[Murphdog]

Thanks JD338

Easy enough to do. I saw some other post regarding E-tips that talked about the long bearing surface increasing the pressure. With that in mind I started looking for other causes. The brass was new but the quality control left a lot to be desired. I had to run the hole bag through an expander ball because the mouths were so out of round. When I weighed the fired brass there was three grains of difference from the heaviest to the lightest. I don't know if that in enough to make a difference in point of impact or not.

 

[SJB358]

MurphDog, I wouldn't think three grains would affect it enough to open up groups like that. I think once you seat them further, just like the Barnes bullets, you will be in great shape and hopefully they start to group for you. That is a great rifle you have, hope it shoots as good as they look! Scotty

 

[6mm Remington]

Murphdog,
Try some 165 grain Partitions and Accubonds. My 30-06 likes IMR4350, but I found a load so accurate I never messed with other powders in it. I'm sure there are some really fantastic powders that would probably work as well.

Let me know what you think of that new Winchester. My son has narrowed his search down to the exact same model only he wants it in the 300 WSM.

 

[Murphdog]

Thanks guys

So far I really like the rifle, the action is smooth, comes up nice to the shoulder. It is a light rifle and kicks a little more than my old Model 70 with the same load. No matter not bad enough that I can't deal with it. My old rife loved Reloader 22 the hotter the better. This rifle seems to like the 165 ballistic tip and does ok with the 180 grain partitions. I can't wait to try seating the bullet a little deeper. I had hoped that the E-tips would give better penatration on elk at point blank and the super BC would help when they get way out there.

 

[JD338]

Murphdog

I think the single biggest improvement in accuracy you can make is to seat the bullets .100" off the lands.

Let us know how this works for you.

JD338

 

[Murphdog]

Boy do I feel like a fool. When I read the little note from the lab I was thinking .01 inches not .1 inches. It is all making sense now that I got my head on straight. It would be helpful if there was more information on the E-tips for those of us who have never loaded anything but ballistic tips or partitions.

This form is so good.

Thanks

 

[JD338]

Murphdog

There really isn't that much data on the E-Tips but be rest assured that Nosler will include them in their next publication, RG #7 in the next couple of years.

The E-Tips need a lot of jump. Let us know how the shoot for you.

JD338

 

[SJB358]

I would like to try the ETip's in something, just for the experience. I bought some for the 257 that I will eventually get, but right now, I need to find something, just to mess with a little. Seems like a great bullet and it would be ashame to find out that I like it more than anything else I have shot!! Might need to look into some 150's or something for my 7 Mag. Scotty

 

[baltz526]

What i found with the .75" of bearing on the 180 Etip was, It liked slow powder. I'm not shooting them in a 30-06 but If i was loading for one with the 180gr Etip I would use the 200gr AB data and would expect To max out with rl22 at 58gr and a commpressed load. I would also use my lee crimp die to stop bullet migration. Magnum primers is also what i would use. I would be happy with a 2700fps max velocity with the Etip in the 30-06, it is a long bullet and it takes up a lot of powder space to expect more.

 

[Richracer1]

I used the 180ET in my 30-06. I tried RL-22, but it's to bulky and even at a COL of 3.39", it was still a very compressed load and even pushed some of the bullets back out. Anyway, I decided to try H4350 using Hodgdon data, so some estimating/guessing came in to play as to where to stop for a max charge weight. I started at the Hodgdon minimum/start load and stooped at 54gns. I also used my COL (3.39") from my 180AB load. I found the sweet spot at 53.5gn of H4350 using Win brass, GM210M primers and a COL of 3.39" and had an average velocity of 2750fps.
Here's the target - 3 shot group:

 

[Murphdog]

Thanks guys I have some bullets loaded up with 59 grains of RL 22 that I seated at .1" off the rifle's seating depth or 3.250". When I have had the time it has been too windy for an honest test. Maybe tomarrow. I am using Fed. 210 primers with Winchester cases, the load is compressed.

By the time I finish testing, followed by getting a zero I will have used the whole box. If it doesn't work I can always go back to the good ole' 180 grain Partition. The old rifle loved them the new rifle likes the ones I had worked up for the old rifle; I assume that with a little TLC the new rifle will also out perform me. Best of all deer, elk, bears, etc. hate them. One might asked why I bothered trying to improve upon what I already had. Then again maybe that is why many of us reload always looking for that little extra.

Murphdog

 

[SJB358]

That is a great shooting load Rich. Scotty

 

[Murphdog]

Update:

I got out and tried the E-tips with .1" out of rifling - Still will not group consistantly- tried different primers not much change. I shot two three shot goups and started on a third. It looked like I was getting flyers so I shot a 12 shot group, and ended up with a 1" four shot group, a 1" three shot group, two groups of two touching, and a flyer. The only problem is that the big group is about 5". Note the bullets where random in which sub group they ended up in. To keep my head on straight I shot a three shot ballistic tip group that was just outside an inch. I cleaned the gun dug out a different rest and tried again. No real change. No pressure signs. New brass, but the quality control on the brass was lacking. New Winchester brass in the ballistic tips but from a much older lot.

Ok so it does not appear that my rifle, 180 grain E-tips, and Rl 22 are going to play well togather. In the short term I am going to go back to the 180 partitions and put togather my main hunting, load-bear season opens on the 15th of Sept. Long term I have a couple of options if I am going to use E-tips.

One Stick with the 180s and find a new powder starting with H4350 (that is one hell of a good group).

Two look at the 168 Etips with Rl 22. The question is will I have a compressed load issue with the 168.

Thoughts

 

[Elkman]

murphdog

To bad about the E-tips, I have a couple of guns that will not shoot a particular brand bullet. However all is not lost as I think that you said that it shoots the Nosler Partition well. There are very few bullets that out preform the PT at any range. I have been using them forever and you will not be sorry with their performance. My older 06 liked a case full of 4831 with the 180 and I am sure some of the reloader powders as well as 4350 and a couple of other Hodgon types will work well. :grin:

 

[SJB358]

I could be pretty happy with only PT's for my big game rifles. Scotty

 

[Murphdog]

Ya, being stuck with partitions is not so bad. At one point I had a string of 8 consecutive one shot kills, two elk and black bear were part of the string. Partitions are like the 30-06-they get the job done day in and day out.

 

[DrMike]

I used the 180ET in my 30-06. I tried RL-22, but it's to bulky and even at a COL of 3.39", it was still a very compressed load and even pushed some of the bullets back out. Anyway, I decided to try H4350 using Hodgdon data, so some estimating/guessing came in to play as to where to stop for a max charge weight. I started at the Hodgdon minimum/start load and stooped at 54gns. I also used my COL (3.39") from my 180AB load. I found the sweet spot at 53.5gn of H4350 using Win brass, GM210M primers and a COL of 3.39" and had an average velocity of 2750fps.
Here's the target - 3 shot group:

RR,

That is a fine load. I'll have to mine that load for my own '06.