Elk rifle

[358WINMAN]

Matt,

I can appreciate your honesty. I don't doubt for a minute that there are guys like you and Brad who have the practice down to a science and then apply it to your given hunting scenario. Most guys here in the east would not know what to do with a 300 yard shot.
I practiced my butt off to hunt Montana and be ready fpr long shots. Practcie is really very necessary to be effective at long range "clean Kills"

I too, would rather pass on a long shot then wound a majestic animal be it elk, muley, whitetail etc... then make it coyote food with a bad hit.
Hot shot macho hunters give alot of us a bad name with anti's because they wound animals who turn up later dead at the feet of those who oppose our great sport. Not for me. I'll keep it honest and shoot when I know I can perform "one shot, one kill" in my hunt.
Regards,
Stew

 

[MattStevens]

Stew,

There was a time when I had long range shooting down to a science. Those times are a few years in the past now. I shoot at a range that has a 500 yard alley. I don't practice at long ranges. Most of my load work-up and pre-season shooting is done at 250 yards. I normally fire a couple rounds at 300 and 500 just get a good idea where my 225 AB, 338WM is falling.

You are correct about respect of the animal and I put that at the forefront of my decision making. I'm not trying to make a point here, but I do know it's quite feasable for somebody who really puts the time, effort, skill and equipment together under the right circumstances to be effective at longer ranges. It's just not for me when hunting animals I have such a great regard for.

That being said, I have no problem arching a round into a coyote, or two.

Matt

 

[Bigwheels]

I, for one am relieved to see there are some shooters out there that can realisticly appraise thier abilities, & at the same time realize that there are some,albet few, that are qualified,& equiped to shoot longer, & not disrespect them for thier patient practice.I salute you. :grin: Some disregard the fact that there are places in the west,(where I hunt) where a 300yd. shot is " just a fair poke".I get tired of people disrespecting me because I practice hundreds of rounds every year to have the ability to shoot @ extnded range, just because they don't hunt where it is "wide open"!

 

[MattStevens]

Sounds like we're on the same page.

The out-of-state hunting regs are hitting my mail box a couple times a week now. I know it's early, but I'm already looking forward to the 2007 big game season. I'm ready....

 

[Jeff Olsen]

Hey, it's the return of the long-range-elk thread!

My only comment this time around is to mention an uncontrollable variable that has not been mentioned yet, which is that we aren't trying to hit elk-sized-vitals here, we are trying to hit an elk in the vitals! The difference being, in the latter case the target is attached to an animal. Enough time passes between the brain making the decision to drop the hammer and the bullet actually arriving at the elk to make this a very significant variable. One horsefly, one tuft of sweet grass the animal just noticed, one whiff of sweet nookie the bull catches on the wind, and that animal can move enough to turn your chip shot into something that, quite frankly, you don't hear the long-range guys brag about- a wounded and lost animal...

I've been inspired by this thread to set up a longer-range practice course... I've got steel plates hanging cross-canyon at 250, 340, 400, and 500 yards. I'm having a ball! With my present setup, lacking a target scope or long-range reticle, my absolute maximum range that i am finding myself personally capable of, is 400 yards, and even then I am much more comfortable at 340. I can whack the 340 every time. The reason is holdover- I can hold plenty steady on the 500-yard plate, or beyond, but with a "regular" scope, zeroed at 150 yards, the holdover is too hard for me to judge. At 340 I can aim one "vitals" high; that's easy beyond that I'm not having much luck being consistant. I understand that with the right scope I might find I could be consistant out further, at least at my plates.

Wind is another thing that's messing with me. On a windy day, there's such a mess of cross-canyon mayhem going on that I can't tell how to compensate for it. It can be blowing one way where I am, the other way over at the target, and who knows what in between! How do you long-range proponents handle that?

I'm working with 3 rifles. One is my trusty 30-06 with 165-gn Accubonds at 2925 fps, a PacNor barrel, and Jewell trigger. The 2nd is my my 338 WM with 225-gn Accubonds at 2850 fps. I tried my 200-gn load but it sucked at longer ranges. The third is, strangely enough, my 7mm-08 Mountain Rifle LSS with (get this) 120-gn BT's! That sucker is DEADLY on those plates. I'm also having WAY too much fun tormenting the 250-yard plate with my little AR15 carbine.

My opinion is amply stated earlier on this thread, and being a lover not a fighter I'll refrain from re-stating it in full other than to say this- I think we all agree that a 600 or 700 yard shot is an experts-only shot and should be taken knowing full well that the shooter is operating out on the margins of what is ethical and effective... EVERYTHING had better be right before a person pulls the trigger on that shot.

-jeff

 

[JD338]

Jeff,

Get some dials for your scope and learn to dial in the range. Once you get the hang of it, you will amaze yourself. Reading the wind is the difficult part of LRH.

JD338

 

[Bigwheels]

Jeff. Get a scope with a MIL-DOT reticle.Get ahold of a balistics computer,& set up your load.Draw a picture of the MIL's on a piece of paper,& calculate your drops in MIL's.Mark them on the paper.Put it in a scanner,& shrink it down so it will fit inside your scope cap.(Butler
creek's)Tape it in there,& it's allways there when you need it in a hurry.I also add the windage for a 10 mph cross wind at the same time.It takes a long time to get it set up,but in a pinch,It's only seconds to varify your hold over,& windage.Just make sure the scope is actualy MIL's.Mine was only acurate on 10 power.I adjusted the picture ,& was able to get it spot on out to 600yds.My scope is a Leupold 4.5-14.& the Mil's were actually .76 mil on 14 power.It's a lot of work,but it's worth it when the time comes that you need it. :grin:

 

[Jeff Olsen]

Jeff,

Get some dials for your scope and learn to dial in the range. Once you get the hang of it, you will amaze yourself. Reading the wind is the difficult part of LRH.

JD338

Leupold can install target knobs on my 2.5x8? That's interesting. Do they do it for a reasonable cost?

How DO you read wind?

I have considered attempting to try to figure out how to dial up 400 yards on my scopes- in other words, find the setting that gives me a zero at 400, and make a mark on my (non-target) dials or turrent so I could click to it. Idea being, with a 150-yard zero I can just shoot to point of aim out to 200 or so... at 250, I hold top of vitals, and at 350 I hold one vitals high. So it's really not necessary to mess with my scope out to 350. However, like I said, the additional drop at 400 is messing with me beyond all proportion. So... if I verified that my scopes would go to a different zero, then come back, reliably I could figure out zero at 400 yards and mark it and click back and forth.

I'm kind of superstitous about messing with my scope settings. My 30-06 has held zero for 3 years now, over hill and dale, getting dropped a couple times, etc. So messing with the scope is sort of taboo. I need to get over that! I've had scopes, Leupold scopes for that matter, that would not shoot a "box" and one messed with a zeroed scope at their own peril...


The other thing stopping me, is that without a spotter I can't tell where i'm hitting (missing) to know where to adjust the scope! I've been thinking of bringing a video camera on a tripod to see if I could then rewind to see where I am missing.

It's fun. My goal for the summer was to find out where my limit is and to get in some real-world practice at longer ranges. I'm not interested in shooting at game past 400 yards, but it might be fun to whack my plates out beyond that! I'd like to buy a "proper" scope for the job, but I changed careers last summer and I need to guard my money a little right now until I get the new one (real estate) fully up and running. If I can get target turrents for my Leupold 2.5x8's for a reasonable price, that's interesting news!

Thanks for the advice!

-jeff

 

[MattStevens]

Jeff,

You are right about the resurrection of an old thread. Everything which concerns you is correct. In the sniper business you are taught to keep a "dope-book," that means recording every shot group, i.e. wind speed and direction at the muzzel, ambient temp, mirage on warm days. barrel heat, is it a cold shot, or a number in succession, what type of round, distance, incline/decline degrees. It all goes into a dope-book. You set your dials based on past data matched to current conditions. I know that's the extreme, but it's also what the military teaches. Wind often changes direction, especially in canyons and mountains. Updraft and downdraft change with the time of day and degree of solar loading. Wind direction is commonly different in open spaces than near upslopes and downslopes. All the aforementioned are somewhat predictable for the experienced, but an animal moving is not.

Again, it can be done by those who are willing and able to practice in these conditions. I no longer practice, nor do I keep the detailed records; therefore, I don't attempt these shots. That being said, I don't vex those who do as long as they embrace the art and PRACTICE.

The resurrection must mean the season is coming!

Matt

 

[Jeff Olsen]

Yeah, we seem to have turned the corner, huh? It's time to start thinking about the upcoming seasons, not last year's seasons... Part of that is that we all have to start figuring out what tags to go after...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply... it is fun shooting out "there". My next thing to do, for fun, it to try to dial in my big (as opposed to Bush-variant) M1a to see what I can do with that at longer ranges. It's amazing what an aperature sight is capable of, as long as the target is highly visible at least.

I think, it being March and all, that I will try to break my superstitions about not messing with a proven, zeroed, hunting rifle and just start spinning those dials and find out what each individual 2.5x8 scope is capable of, in terms of going to different zero's then returning to the original zero. It's a leap of faith, but then these are very nice scopes. If things get all FOOBAR I still have the whole summer to re-zero, verify it, verify it again, etc etc.

Wind is the thing that I can tell is going to be my biggest hurdle. I'm a good shot, well into sub-MOA on good days, but that's at ranges where external conditions don't matter. I should have hung ribbons on my stands (that the steel plates are hanging from); since they are set up in a clear-cut, there's not any grass nor ANYTHING much alive to see moving in the wind.

Also, I just ordered another Jewell trigger for my .338 Win Mag. It's a very accurate rifle and if I'm going to even pretend to get proficient out to 400 yards, the factory trigger won't cut it. Actually, it probably would cut it but having a Jewell on one rifle but not on the other just doesn't work for me- my nervous system gets tuned to the Jewell on the '06 and then the factory trigger on the 338 feels like pulling a log! A log that kicks pretty hard which makes things worse. That's even with the factory M700 trigger set at 2.5 pounds... as low as I can safely take it. The Jewell is just soooo much better...

-jeff

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

WInd is always the main factor in LR shooting. Drop is easily accounted with range and previous shooting outings. The most important factors are also to have the right equipment and time and the range to shoot. If you only have access to shoot out to 300 yards, you have no right to shoot at deer 500 yards away. You must know what you and your rifle are capable of at the maximum distance on inatimate objects like steel and rocks. After a little practice, 400-500 yard shots on deer and elk can be made with regularity as a 200 yard shot. Its clearly not rocket science. If a 15 year old kid can learn his way into doing it, anybody can if they actually want to learn. People with there nose stuck up places wont and dont want to learn how, so they never will. THats there own problem.

The number one problem I see is the range and time factor. Not everyone has a place to go out and shoot past 400-500 yards. Once you find the place, you must find the time to pratice. A rangefinder, a good scope with target turrets, a good drop chart based on actual shooting and not computer generated numbers, good handloads and accurate rifle is pretty much all it takes to make 500 yard shots on deer sized animals. On elk its a chip shot at 400-500 yards.

 

[FOTIS]

Jeff,

Get some dials for your scope and learn to dial in the range. Once you get the hang of it, you will amaze yourself. Reading the wind is the difficult part of LRH.

JD338

Leupold can install target knobs on my 2.5x8? That's interesting. Do they do it for a reasonable cost?


-jeff

Sure can! Call them . I had a couple of scopes done.

 

[MattStevens]

Jeff,

What kind of trigger are you using. I put a Timney in my 7mm VGX Weatherby. It is very nice. I have the stock trigger in my 338 WM, Mod 70. The Model 70's trigger was a much better stock trigger than the Weatherby. Just wondering the brand you are installing what what you like about it. I must say, I really like the Timney, it's crisp and has absolutely no creep.

Matt

 

[Jeff Olsen]

I have a Jewell on my 30-06, and I just ordered another one for my 338 WM. Those are both M700's; the '06 has a PacNor Supermatch barrel on it.

The M700 factory trigger is decent with my kitchen-table adjustments, and I've heard can be made pretty dang good with a spring kit etc. However, the Jewell is AWESOME. I think Timney triggers are also excellent, right? I've certainly heard them mentioned a lot.

The stock M700 trigger is fine (for me) for closer range, less precise stuff. I don't even want a Jewell on my main blacktail rifle since that type of hunting tends to be so hot and heavy and close-range. In fact, I'll have to add some pull weight to my Jewell(s) when hunting season comes around; I don't want to hunt with a trigger that light. The only AD of my life was with a light set (factory) trigger and heavy gloves on, hunting elk. Animals came over the ridge behind me, I turned and flipped off the safety and BOOOM! shot the ground in front of me. Apparantly, my glove was putting pressure on the trigger that I couldn't feel. As it turned out, even some sideways pressure would drop the sear with that trigger. Never doing THAT again!!

I'd love to try a Timney sometime- I'm sure they are great...

-jeff

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

TImneys are pretty good for the money. I have never personally owned one, but my dad and couple friends have. They are a great trigger. YOu can usually get them down to about 2-2.5# with a really nice break on them. My dad has one in a Ruger MKII in his 25-06 set at 2lbs which is really nice. My friend just got one installed on his remington XCR 338 RUM and he said he put it down to 3lbs. Said it broke like glass. All my rifles are either remington or winchester and a competent gunsmith can get them down to break crisp at 2.5#, so I dont really see a need to go buy a $75 trigger. They are great to have in a RUger or something along those lines though...

 

[MattStevens]

I don't like too light of a trigger on my hunting rifles. What I do like is a crisp trigger with no creep. I too had a misfire once; I saw a rather large forked horn, black-tail buck running side hill above me. I hustled up a steep hill, about eighty yards to get into position of get a glimps of him. Low-and-behold, I saw a deer standing with his head in the brush about thirty yards infront of me. I lowed the rifle to check his head for horns, which was obscured in brush. Sure enough, it was the same buck I had just saw. I was breathing heavy from the hustle up the hill. When I started to lower the cross hairs on him, I fired the round off about four to five feet over the top of him. One jump and he was gone. Breathing heavy, finger over the trigger, yep, I'm not letting that happen again.

PS. Was this forum down for about 24 hours for you too?

Matt

 

[Anonymous]

The forum was down for the last 24 hours for everyone. We switched to a new server to handle the increased traffic and bandwidth (like 10 page posts :grin. I hope it didn't inconvenience anyone, it wasn't supposed to take that long but things always happen that you didn't see coming.

 

[Jeff Olsen]

TImneys are pretty good for the money. I have never personally owned one, but my dad and couple friends have. They are a great trigger. YOu can usually get them down to about 2-2.5# with a really nice break on them. My dad has one in a Ruger MKII in his 25-06 set at 2lbs which is really nice. My friend just got one installed on his remington XCR 338 RUM and he said he put it down to 3lbs. Said it broke like glass. All my rifles are either remington or winchester and a competent gunsmith can get them down to break crisp at 2.5#, so I dont really see a need to go buy a $75 trigger. They are great to have in a RUger or something along those lines though...

I think the Jewell on my 30-06 is set more like 1.5 lbs...

Just for the record, a Jewell is a $225 dollar trigger! Yikes.

I agree that the factory Remington trigger is "fine". I've just used factory M700 triggers set to 3 lbs for years and years. Then, I let a buddy talk me into buying that Jewell, and there's really not any way to describe it properly other than something stupid like "Oh my God"! It's so much cleaner and crisper and yes, lighter (but safe; you can't get a Remmie trigger to 1.5 pounds safely).

Anyway... if we ever hook up on that friendly 600-yard bet I'll be sure to bring the 30-06 along and you can feel it for yourself! My main problem is just switching between them; I fight a flinch, and when I get myself in tune with my Jewell, it's really hard to switch to the factory trigger.

-jeff