FL sizing vs neck sizing on belted mags

[orchemo]

Loading the 6.5 Rem Mag and 350 Rem Mag.

I have Lee dies for both. When loading the 6.5 RM, I notice the dies "scrap" off a little brass when re-sizing. Normal?

Would you consider neck sizing only? Or a Lee Collet Neck sizer?

Since the brass is not overly abundant, getting full use of the brass plays a factor.

Thanks

 

[Guest]

I tend to neck size or partial FL size all my brass, belted or not. If you're shaving brass, you might want to look into another set of dies, or having yours reamed/belled slightly larger at the base, to avoid that. Might be as simple as having whatever company made the dies just chamfer or radius the lip of the die where it contacts the brass above the belt.

 

[REDGREEN]

After fireforming and trimming I neck size everything. I still have Browning 300 Winchester magnum brass that is in use. It has been annealed, but all neck sized. The less you work it, the longer it will last.

 

[boomer68]

Do you use actual neck sizing dies, or just adjust FL sizer?

 

[Elkman]

I still have Browning 300 Winchester magnum brass that is in use. It has been annealed, but all neck sized. The less you work it, the longer it will last.

There is that word (anealing) again. I still need to do some. I have neck sizing only die for the STW. On the others I just turn the FLS die back a little and use it. The neck sizing die is twice as fast as using the full length type of die. YOu have to run them back after a while however!

 

[Guest]

For almost all my rifle cartridges, I've acquired a true neck sizing die. It's so easy to dry lube the case neck with mica, size it, and wipe off the mica. Much easier than lube, size, clean off the lube like with a FL die (even when partially sizing the brass to keep working to a minimum). I like the Hornady neck dies, as they are not cartridge specific. I know guys who spend a lot of money and buy the high-end Redding competition bushing neck and body dies, and perhaps if I shot out beyond 500yds very much, I'd consider those. But for my 500yds and under shooting, the Hornady "one die per bore diameter" method seems to work wonders. It's cost effective, too. I use the same sizing die for my 30-06 & 300Wby (and could use it for my 30-30WCF, except I don't neck size for lever guns or autoloaders). I use the same one for my 270Wby and my son's 270WSM. It's so easy!

 

[boomer68]

For almost all my rifle cartridges, I've acquired a true neck sizing die. It's so easy to dry lube the case neck with mica, size it, and wipe off the mica. Much easier than lube, size, clean off the lube like with a FL die (even when partially sizing the brass to keep working to a minimum). I like the Hornady neck dies, as they are not cartridge specific. I know guys who spend a lot of money and buy the high-end Redding competition bushing neck and body dies, and perhaps if I shot out beyond 500yds very much, I'd consider those. But for my 500yds and under shooting, the Hornady "one die per bore diameter" method seems to work wonders. It's cost effective, too. I use the same sizing die for my 30-06 & 300Wby (and could use it for my 30-30WCF, except I don't neck size for lever guns or autoloaders). I use the same one for my 270Wby and my son's 270WSM. It's so easy!

Do they require lube? Great idea though.

 

[Guest]

I just use dry lube. You can use graphite or mica powder. I'm using mica because it's what came with the little set of neck brushes I have in a bench mounted tray. Case goes down over the correct diameter brush, neck into the mica, back up the brush, then into the neck sizer and out, then wipe off the mica. Easy as pie. Here's the instructions from Forster for the tray I use, but there are others that are just as good. This just happened to be what my local shop had in stock when I decided to try this:

http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_i ... 41-001.pdf

 

[300WSM]

I will add something here.

Get a neck die that is made just for that application. Turning the full length back a little works but sometimes it might not work.

An example of this.....Three days ago I was helping a friend at the range who had just purchased a used STW and also got a pile of re-loaded ammo/brass with it. He was getting some cases almost impossible to chamber and even had a couple of them chamber..then fire...and then wouldn't extract. The case actually stuck in the chamber with the bolt open. :roll:

The problem came from the previous owner/loader using a FL die and just turning it back to size the neck only. The operation he was doing wasn't exact and that equated to not having exact chamberings, etc.

How many firings are you trying to get from the brass? I know the answer is as many as you can. But what would be a satisfying number of firings? You might be able to acheive that number doing a full length re-size each time. That is the sure thing doing a full length size on them.

 

[Guest]

Plenty of people work with FL sizing dies set to partially resize the case. It's been a standard of handloading and is advocated in reloading manuals as the means to avoiding case head separation. Your friend's experience with the STW lies not with the partial-FL sizing process the previous owner used with the brass, but rather with failing to do something we've all failed to do at one point or another. Your friend either chose not to resize this "unknown used brass" or he forgot to resize it, but either way he had a learning experience. Countless people (myself included) have had similar experiences, including getting to the range with a batch of handloads to work up, only to discover that a number of the cases that came with a used rifle won't chamber because they either came from a different rifle prior to arriving in the mail with your "new to you" gun, or they were not sufficiently sized the last time through by the previous owner. A hard and fast rule of brass is, if you don't know where it was the last time it was fired, check the case head for a separation ring, FL size it if there isn't one, and then check the length and trim if necessary. I'm sorry for your friend's experience - and for the record I just did this not three weeks ago with some brass I got with a rifle and it wouldn't chamber after loading...arggggh! - but it's part of the deal that we have to size unknown brass.

Beyond that, partial sizing is the very best way to use a full length size die if you're shooting a bolt gun. Otherwise, you're risking case stretch and head separation, which can happen without the visual cues we all are taught to look for.

 

[woods]

Where is the scraped brass coming from?

If it is coming from the case body then it is probably that you have a large chamber (which Remingtons are well known for). I reload for a friend's Remington 300 win mag and it takes a lot of lube and effort to resize his brass because the brass at the body is so tight in the die. This in a die that resizes 6 other 300 win mags (Matos, Sakos, Savages and Brownings) with little effort. His Remington 300 win mag leaves a lot of shavings also.

I also have a 6.5 Rem Mag and sent off to Lee for a Collet neck sizer since I like to use a combination of Lee Collets and Redding Body Dies for sizing.

 

[300WSM]

Plenty of people work with FL sizing dies set to partially resize the case. It's been a standard of handloading and is advocated in reloading manuals as the means to avoiding case head separation. Your friend's experience with the STW lies not with the partial-FL sizing process the previous owner used with the brass, but rather with failing to do something we've all failed to do at one point or another. Your friend either chose not to resize this "unknown used brass" or he forgot to resize it, but either way he had a learning experience. Countless people (myself included) have had similar experiences, including getting to the range with a batch of handloads to work up, only to discover that a number of the cases that came with a used rifle won't chamber because they either came from a different rifle prior to arriving in the mail with your "new to you" gun, or they were not sufficiently sized the last time through by the previous owner. A hard and fast rule of brass is, if you don't know where it was the last time it was fired, check the case head for a separation ring, FL size it if there isn't one, and then check the length and trim if necessary. I'm sorry for your friend's experience - and for the record I just did this not three weeks ago with some brass I got with a rifle and it wouldn't chamber after loading...arggggh! - but it's part of the deal that we have to size unknown brass.

Beyond that, partial sizing is the very best way to use a full length size die if you're shooting a bolt gun. Otherwise, you're risking case stretch and head separation, which can happen without the visual cues we all are taught to look for.

Dub,

Are you saying that there is no way the cases were run through a die set? That there could be no way that some of the shoulders got bumped and some didn't ? Is that what you are saying here? Because I can promise you that the cases were run through the die set. Not by me but I can assure you they were run through the die.
Did the die set move as it wasn't tightened down among some other things?

Just as you seem to say this is a sure thing by just turning a fl die back I can tell you this is not the only time I've seen this issue from a shooter/reloader. Did they perform the operation properly? Obviously not...which again is a point with using the FL die set. If the loader cams the FL die set over.....that is exact. At that point the only thing in question becomes the OAL.

Please notice when I replied to the OP I asked him about the number of firings he was expecting along with this. To be specific...I was asking because if he was satisfied with a certain number....and the number was low enough..then head separation and other problems than can show just by the sheer lack of loadings would be eliminated

 

[FOTIS]

Whenever possible I get Lee collet dies......

 

[Oldtrader3]

Not having oversized chambers in my two mags (the 7mm Rem Mag and .340 Weatherby), I can use either neck or FL dies for resizing. Because of slow case taper and length, I use the full size die on the .340 Bee and the neck die mostly on the 7mm Mag because it is shorter and more tapered. The Foster BR dies, in both cases, give me easy bolt closure and well controlled headspace, plus the Froster Carbide sizer buttons allow smooth neck expansion with no internal lube in the neck at all. In fact I do not even lube the extenal necks either and have had no stretching.

With about .0015 inch shoulder datum setback and repeatablity in the .340 FL resizing die, the cases almost drop in the chamber and I am on my 7th reload of nearly maximum loads for this 100 lot of Norma .340 Bee cases with no incipient separations or incidents.

 

[SJB358]

Please notice when I replied to the OP I asked him about the number of firings he was expecting along with this. To be specific...I was asking because if he was satisfied with a certain number....and the number was low enough..then head separation and other problems than can show just by the sheer lack of loadings would be eliminated

Just don't bet on just a few firings of getting by with a belted magnum using a FL sizer resized to the max. I have seen 338WM's and 7RM's start to get REALLY bad in about 3 firings. Again, I bump shoulders EVERY time I resize for all of my stuff to either .002" for the belted and standards and .003-.004" for the WSM's. I get unreal case life and haven't had an issue with case head seps.

 

[Oldtrader3]

It all comes down to chamber reamers, machinest skill, setup and die reamers tolerances, concentricity and TIR with FL dies. Generally, you get what you pay for just like optics. Better quailty dies and rifle workmanship should perform better although it sometimes does not work that way. I can pretty much assure myself that my Sako gets chamber reamed more carefully than my Remington does, especially on Friday!

 

[Guest]

Are you saying that there is no way the cases were run through a die set? That there could be no way that some of the shoulders got bumped and some didn't ? Is that what you are saying here? Because I can promise you that the cases were run through the die set. Not by me but I can assure you they were run through the die.
Did the die set move as it wasn't tightened down among some other things?

Just as you seem to say this is a sure thing by just turning a fl die back I can tell you this is not the only time I've seen this issue from a shooter/reloader. Did they perform the operation properly? Obviously not...which again is a point with using the FL die set. If the loader cams the FL die set over.....that is exact. At that point the only thing in question becomes the OAL.

Please notice when I replied to the OP I asked him about the number of firings he was expecting along with this. To be specific...I was asking because if he was satisfied with a certain number....and the number was low enough..then head separation and other problems than can show just by the sheer lack of loadings would be eliminated

300, I meant no disrespect nor offense with my original post. I can't say for sure the brass wasn't run through a die, but that was the most likely scenario. What I can say is, if the brass was run through a die, the die was set up improperly, and potentially the brass did not all come from the same previous rifle chamber. I'll also add that if the brass came from another rifle's chamber prior to your friend getting it, he should have FL sized the brass completely, not partially, for the first run through his rifle. Even if the brass came to him with a used rifle, and was reported to have been fired only in that rifle, he should FL size it just to be sure, as I've had the experience that folks will say things that just aren't true (either out of malice or ignorance) about brass and where it's been.

Now, as to the contention that the die moved during sizing, that's possible. That, however, can and will happen even more readily in a shellholder-touching-the-die-camming-the-press-over situation, so the argument doesn't really hold water for me that the die setup was loose, and if the die had been screwed in more, it would have been safe because it wouldn't have still been loose. Improper reloading technique is improper, no matter what the die position.

Beyond that, I'm not trying to write a book here, but the reality is that if you take brass that's all been fired in the same rifle chamber, and lock a die in place in your press, at a properly adjusted setting so as to bump the shoulder back .002" (as Scotty mentioned) you can count on the brass all coming out within a hair of .002" bump at the shoulder. It's been proven time and again on my bench, and it's the recommended course of action in most any handloading manual out there, if loading for a single, specific bolt gun chamber.

To be sure, you're more than welcome to FL size everything in "cam-over" setting. And to play the odds that you'll get however many loadings from your brass before you purposefully scrap it. But I've seen caseheads separate without any warning on the exterior of the case, and your scenario invites that sort of accident to happen more often than partial-FL sizing. The whole thing hinges on the individual handloader understanding how to set up a sizing die, having the proper measuring tools and knowledge to use them, and checking his or her work diligently before charging and seating bullets.

Again, I meant no offense with my post, and you're welcome to do things however you choose. I just wanted to be sure any novice loaders who read this thread don't end up with misinformation. This way, they can read both sides, and make an informed decision about which way to proceed.