Gunsmith RUINED my Model 70...

[Rigbymauser]

In this country where I live it takes full 4 years to become a gunsmith.

You start as a student at tech-school for 20 weeks and then have to find a gunsmith where you can serve the rest of the 3½ year period as an apprentice...only interupted with 3x10week schooltraining with more advanced traning. All this ends up with with a test where severel older gunsmiths conform a panel to judge each student work of quality of the test. If the apprentice pass the test he become a jouneyman of the tradeand recieve a letter/certificate of the trade and will eventually grow in experience from there and may specialize. Often Young journey start with a lower wage. Often it take up to 10-12 years to truly master the skill to reach perfection. Same goes lots of other trades like Carpenters, bricklayers, plummers, electricians, etc.

How is it in the US?.

 

[ScreaminEagle]

In this country where I live it takes full 4 years to become a gunsmith.

You start as a student at tech-school for 20 weeks and then have to find a gunsmith where you can serve the rest of the 3½ year period as an apprentice...only interupted with 3x10week schooltraining with more advanced traning. All this ends up with with a test where severel older gunsmiths conform a panel to judge each student work of quality of the test. If you pass you become a jouneyman of the trade and will eventually grow in experience from there and may specialize.
Same goes lots of other trades like Carpenters, bricklayers, plummers, electricians, etc.

How is it in the US?.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express!

 

[Vince]

To be a Gunsmith in the states you need to hang out your shingle.

 

[BK]

Well guys my purple loctite came in :wink: now bases & scope install & I hope to be finished the break in by the end of next week!
After that I believe it will be load development.

Blessings,
Dan

Dang, this post was off to such a good start... LOL

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Finally finished...posted here in its entirety...to be honest, I've struggled with mixed feelings about writing this...I don't feel good about telling this story...but I'd feel worse if I found out it happened to somebody else because I didn't say anything.


To begin this I want to explain the rifle this happened to...Its an FN made Winchester model 70 in 30-06, McMillan Supergrade stock, and before this had been wearing a Vortex Viper HS 4-16x44mm scope...I've spent 4 years and $2,350 putting this rifle together (rifle, scope, stock, stock bedding materials, etc.)...it was an absolute tack driver, bugholes at 100 yards, 1-1.5" groups at 300 yards, 4-5" groups at 600 yards (3 round groups)...It was almost perfect, for me...but the Vortex scope was just a little out of place on this rifle...I needed a scope designed for hunting...FWIW, there is a pretty good history of this gun on a few forums, complete with pictures.

So, a while back I bought a new scope for my rifle...the new scope is a Zeiss Conquest HD5 3-15x42mm, I also got some Talley lightweight rings/bases to put it in because the holes in one of the Warne steel bases I had been using were drilled a little off center, visibly off center...just enough to be able to see it...I put those Warne bases on there about 3 years ago, I used a drop of blue Loctite (242) on the screws, same as I have done dozens of times before on other rifles over the years...but this particular time, it stuck unusally hard...when I went to remove the Warne bases it broke the tip off the Torx bit...the screws woudn't budge!

After I broke the Torx bit in the one screw I brought out the heat gun...heated a different screw to 500 degrees (per the digital settings on my heat gun)...and broke another Torx bit, that screw wouldn't budge either! So I stopped, thought it over a bit, and decided to try a GraBit ( http://www.thegrabitstore.com/Pages/mic ... t4kit.aspx )...DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THESE, they are useless for seriously stuck fasteners, might work OK for something stuck in wood...anyway, that didn't work either...at this point I knew I was gonna need a gunsmith.

I knew what needed to be done, but I don't have the equipment (drill press, mill)...so I looked up a gunsmith, for what should have been such a simple job I didn't stress over it much, any gunsmith should be able to drill out stuck scope bases (that assumption was my first mistake)...I called ATL Outdoorsmen in Johnson City, TN...their website is still under construction (new store), but here is their Facebook page ( https://www.facebook.com/atl.outdoorsmen )...they said, "Sure, we'll get them out..bring it on over"...so I took it to them...as I was filling out the invoice, I mentioned that I'd like to speak to the gunsmith to ask him about some possible work in the future...I wanted to know if he could ream chambers, set back barrels, etc....you know, gunsmith stuff! When I mentioned that I'd like to speak the the gunsmith he (Andrew, guy behind the counter) completely disregarded the question...that was a BIG red flag to me...but then I reminded myself, its a simple task to drill out scope bases (I'm still kicking myself for that decision)...I let them "fix" it.

I called them back late the next day to ask how it was coming...they said to come get it around 11am the next day...I was there at 11 am sharp, it wasn't ready yet...so I went and done some other shopping in the area for a couple of hours...went back, this time it was done...he (Andrew, not the gunsmith) brought it out to me explaining how it was difficult to get the screws out, but he was able to save the threads in all 4 holes...I was happy...for about 10 seconds...happiness ended when I caught a glimpse of the threads in the rear base holes...there were no useable threads actually, the front hole was slightly oblong, enough to see with the naked eye! I was already thinking...OK...get it out of here, find a real gunsmith, and re-thread the holes to 8-40 thread, and accept it as my own damn fault for using the blue Loctite in the first place (I will use purple from now on...Loctite 222)...I looked the rifle over, noticed a few other things that were not there when I brought it to them...some rust on the underside, most likely from the gunsmith having to reblue the top of the action but I'm not sure...I figure it was caused by a combination of heat and solvent he used to clean it before blueing it...but thats only a guess...all I know for sure is that there was NO RUST anywhere on my rifle when I brought it in, I'm very anal about keeping my guns clean...they stay soaked in quality lubricant....I use CLP these days, but have used other things over the years...in 30 years I've NEVER had a gun rust...NONE!

Then there were the dings and scratches that he covered with the new coat of blueing...but I was willing to accept all this as my fault, for bringing it to them to begin with, for using the blue Loctite, and because these things could be fixed without much work or money....I was just gonna chalk it up to a lesson learned....

So I signed the invoice stating that the work was done to my satisfaction...I was anything but satisfied...but I just wanted this whole ordeal to be over and done with...they charged me $90 for all that.

I took the rifle home, cleaned it good to stop the rust, and was looking in the cracks and crevices with a flashlight to make sure everything got lubed when I noticed something that made me plumb sick....the light was shining through the end of the reciever, I was looking down at the action from the top...and could see light through the FRONT scope base hole, when you look through this hole on a controlled round feed model 70 action, you are supposed to see BARREL THREADS...for those that don't know (as this gunsmith obviosly didn't)...that hole does not go all the way through....it goes through the reciever, but not through the barrel tenon and into the chamber! He drilled it plumb through and into the chamber...he ruined the best rifle I've ever owned!

After I got over the initial cussing fit...I called them and told them what had happened....they said "bring it up and let us take a look"...I took it back up there (this trip is 37 miles each way)...and it really went downhill from here.

Andrew looked it over for a minute, then tried to tell me Winchester told him that hole was supposed to be there, and all the way through on a controlled round feed Model 70...I knew better, anybody familiar with firearms knows there cannot be a hole in the chamber, brass is will not hold the pressure of firing a 30-06 round (appx. 60,000 psi)....after I had explained this fact to them enough that they figured out I wasn't ignorant of the physics of metallic cartridge operating pressures and brass strength they abandoned that argument...

It was then that I finally got to meet the gunsmith for the first time...he came out, looked it over, and plainly said that it took him forever to get that hole drilled, broke 3 bits doing it (keep this in mind for the rest of this story)...it took me a few minutes to explain to the gunsmith that this was a Model 70, not a Remington 700...and that hole was not supposed to go all the way through, but I did convince him (at least I believe I did), at which point he said...."I'll write that down in my notes...I didn't know".

From here on they were very defensive though...didn't matter what I said...they said I was wrong (I wasn't)...first the gunsmith spoke up and said "I can fix it...I'm a good gunsmith and I'm a good welder"....they tried to tell me it was OK to weld on a rifle barrel, he wanted to weld the barrel, at the chamber!...IN THE CHAMBER! I couldn't believe what I was hearing...I refused that fix quick, fast, and in a hurry!

Then they started looking at replacing the barrel...Winchester won't sell just barrels, or even barreled actions...they ended up deciding they'd get me a Douglas barrel as a replacement, but I was not about to let that gunsmith do any more work on any guns of mine...NONE!!!...who could blame me after what I had seen and heard? Then they offered just the barrel and I could get it hung on there wherever I wanted...I didn't like that solution.

I walked in there with a VERY accurate Winchester barrel...I believe I have the right to walk out with the same thing I walked in with...I didn't want a Douglas barrel, or any other barrel...I wanted a Winchester barrel, made by FN...some of the best factory barrels made, arguably better than a low grade custom barrel in many respects....or at least I believe they are, I have 3 of these guns....all very accurate, clean shooting, and consistent.

All I wanted was my barrel replaced or repaired to the same condition it was in when I walked in...I believe I was well within reason to expect that much and wasn't going to accept anything less.

The lies they told trying to convince me to let them fix it...
They were trying to tell me that FN uses Douglas barrels on model 70's...they DO NOT...its a well known fact that FN hammer forges their own barrels...nobody buys a several million dollar hammer forging machine then doesnt use it!

As I mentioned earlier...they tried telling me that hole was supposed to be there and all the way through to the chamber....NO, it isn't!!!! You cannot fire a rifle with a hole in the chamber...even the best brass (Lapua) won't hold 60,000 psi...if fired with a screw in that hole, the brass would flow into the hole and you'd have a VERY stuck case...if fired without a screw in that hole you darn well better have your shooting glasses on (or a welding helment) because gas is gonna come out that hole at VERY high pressure, and its going to be HOT...and just inches in front of your face!

And after the gunsmith had admitted that it took him forever and 3 broken bits to drill that hole (FN uses very good steel)....they tried to tell me that hole was already there!!!! It wasn't...they did it....and they knew it!

Over the course of several days they kept trying to get me to let them fix it...after all that had happened there was no way they were fixing anything for me because I didn't trust them to know how to do it right...and I didn't like the replacement barrel...I would have accepted a new FN barrel but FN doesn't sell just barrels...the only option was sending it to FN to be replaced and that was gonna be about $600...ATL Outdoorsmen wouldn't agree to that.

In the end I accepted $150 from them...and the only reason I did that was so it wouldn't be a total loss...my wife went and picked up the money order for $150 because I'm a truck driver and was back to work...she had to sign another paper saying the work was done to her satifaction to get the $150...the ONLY reason that was signed was to prevent a total loss of $600...NOTHING about this was done to my satisfaction...

So I was out $450 now...sold the action the for another $150, the barrel is good for nothing accept maybe a tomato stake...still lost $300...$390 if you count the $90 I paid them to do all this.

There are much better places around the Tri-Cities to buy guns from...and much better gunsmiths too, wish I had known this beforehand.

 

[7mmJoe]

I cringe thinking about your misfortune, there are a lot of people out working on firearms now that wouldn't have been there 15 years ago. I think what scares me the most is this could have been me in your shoes, or just about any of us here.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

They replied...on a Facebook group "Tri Cities gun trader"... https://www.facebook.com/groups/4347113 ... ment_reply

Making me out to be the liar....in a big way...this is the story they came up with...

Atl Outdoorsmen WOW!!! This is the most untruthful story… You asked about removing 4 screws you messed up, and dropped it off without care. Hard to believe you would do that, if that was your baby and competition rifle or whatever else you said in so short of time. Plus you were told about all the possibilities that could happen anytime you work on a gun, with the screws and scope base in such bad shape. Knowing that the barrel would be put in a vise etc., chances of it being scratched, needing to be most likely reblued after drilling on the scope bases to get to the screws. What stands out the most is that only one screw hole was drilled and just the middle of the screw. This was done in order to remove the screw and save the threads. This was the second one back, not even the hole you claim this happened to. The screws were extracted by heating and removing. We found it odd that it was mentioned there was ONE drop of Blue Loctite used on the screws, considering they had green Loctite all over them. Which must have been High Strength green Loctite used for permanent applications, considering how bad the screws where messed up. Most folks would stop after messing up one screw or two, but yours had all four screws and the base messed up beyond believe. We took the gun in and extracted the screws. YOU PICKED UP THE GUN AND SIGNED THE PAPERWORK NO PROBLEM. Only to show up later saying we drilled out the chamber. The gunsmith was asked about this and said no, I extracted the screws, only drilling enough in order to grip the screws and turn them out. The scope mounts need to be drilled in order to grip the screws etc. He never had a reason to inspect the gun looking for anything else. So now you are asking for a new gun that was way more than the value of the barrel itself. The gunsmith has worked on many guns over the years. He is known by many as the guy they call to fix everything gun related or not. He has also been a preacher of the same church for 9 years. SO, when the preacher tells us “no sir I didn’t drill through”, then we believe him. In order to go above and beyond customer service, we gave you the benefit of doubt. This was our only mistake. We offered to fix the gun for you, but you insisted on a new gun. Remember, we never saw a whole gun just parts. So we offered to help you out and get you a new barrel. If you call Winchester, they will tell you that their replacement barrel for a model 70 is available through Douglas Barrels. FN Manufacturing does not sell replacement barrels for this model of gun. Speaking to Winchester, their service department informed us that there is a possibility that it could have been a manufacturing error. They actually said they have seen a few like this come in. Anyone that questions this should call and ask, the number is 1-800-333-3288. We then offered to ship it to Winchester and have it repaired at no charge to you. You requested for the gun not to be sent back to Winchester for examination/repair. RED FLAG. Still trying to offer the best service, we offered to buy the whole gun, just bring in the parts. In return you told us “there is no gun”? All we are hearing is money to buy a new gun. We offered to help by refunding your gunsmithing service and then some, in order for you to have someone else fix what you claimed we did. Just to satisfy the customer giving you the benefit of doubt that the customer is always right. We tried to help in many different ways. All of which were declined, until we offered to hand you cash. Even after we said, we know that you will no longer shop with us or use our services but we tried to help. You then said no that is not true and you still may shop our store. So all this was said, then once you have cash in hand, the slander begins.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I'm not gonna argue with them on there...just makes us both look like idiots...I've told the story, I'll let the ones who read it decide who they believe.

 

[7mmJoe]

After reading this response a two things are readily apparent:

1.) There was a lot of emotion in their response. They seemed to stray from the issue by referencing the 9 years as a preacher comment (I'm Catholic so maybe I have a general distrust in the infallibility of men of God). There seemed t be an accusatory tone to the response and honestly there wasn't a lot of maturity exhibited on their part. knowing nothing of your story, if I had only read their response to the issue it would have made me want to go somewhere else.

2.) Some one forgot the first rule of business: "The customer is always right." If one set's up a business that is dependent upon repeat customers, it would serve them well to bend over backwards to retain that business. Let's not forget that people are in business to make money, altruistic reasons and arguments aside, if you cannot turn a profit, you're done. So in a repeat business venue outstanding customer service has to be a part of the business model. Even if they weren't wrong, a smart businessman knows he would have made his money back on you in the next two years or so (depending upon how often you have work done on your firearms) and would have done what they needed to keep you coming back in.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

If I prevent them from doing this to at least one other person...then I have succeeded in all I had hoped to accomplish.

 

[Rigbymauser]

If I prevent them from doing this to at least one other person...then I have succeeded in all I had hoped to accomplish.

Most folks will see that a business who acts as infantile as you have experienced , is a place one need to stay away from.

I would!.

 

[RiverRider]

I find the assertion that the rifle may have always had a hole drilled into the chamber due to a manufacturing error more than a little bit ridiculous. I would suggest that such a defect would have been obvious and problematic from the beginning.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I find the assertion that the rifle may have always had a hole drilled into the chamber due to a manufacturing error more than a little bit ridiculous. I would suggest that such a defect would have been obvious and problematic from the beginning.

Yep....

 

[pharmseller]

Small claims court is your friend.


P

 

[Hired Gun]

This is not as uncommon as you would think. There is another thread on Snipers Hide in the gunsmith section with the same hole in the chamber. This one happened when they were building a brand new rifle. It blew a hole in the brass but caused no injuries.

This should have been an easy fix. Set the barrel back enough to get the hole out of the chamber and rechamber. The receiver could have been welded up and the 6-48 holes restored to good as new. If the set back wasn't an acceptable solution it would have been any barrel you choose on my dime. In my shop we don't take on any job I can't afford to replace if necessary. It's assumed that if I were to damage a part it will be replaced. This is why I don't work on some antique rifles. There is just no replacements available.

Sorry this happened to you.