Help me build my mountain rifle, 6.5x284, 270 win, or 280 Ac

[mcseal2]

I have decided against the Kimber 84L due to the very mixed reviews. I have decided to rebuild my first rifle into a new set-up that I will use. It is my Dad's old Winchester 670 in 243. Although it is a 243 it is a long action. The throat is pretty much gone on the original barrel and I can't even get long 100gr bullets out far enough anymore to shoot well. Since the gun has sentimental value and I already have it, it will be the base for my new build.

So I have an action and recently got a stock for it, a blind magazine MPI synthetic that will finish out at 28oz with a Limbsaver pad and Rapid Pivot bipod attachment.

I'm going to have my gunsmith remove the old barrel tomorrow and get a weight on the action with my postage scale so I know exactly what my action weighs with all it's necessary hardware.

My Leupold 4.5x14 CDS weighs in at 13.8oz and I think Talley 1pc rings and bases will take that up to a pound or a shade more. I don't have any of them to weigh. My old Leupold 1pc base and rings were 7oz so I think I will switch for this rifle.

My sling weighs 3.5oz, and a 140gr 280 reload I had sitting around from an old rifle weighs 1oz, so I figure 7.5oz for a sling and 4 rounds in the gun.

That brings me up to 52.3oz before the action and barrel. My target weight is for an 8lb gun scoped, loaded, and ready to hunt. This leaves me 75.7oz for the barrel and action with all it's hardware. or 4.7lbs I'll update this when I get an actual weight of the action & hardware after the old barrel is removed.

So I'll finally get to the point. I'm looking to build a mountain rifle weighing 8lbs ready to hunt. It will primarily be a deer rifle since I plan to add a Browning mountain TI in 300WSM to my arsenal someday for elk and bigger critters. I only draw an elk tag about every 4yrs, so this will likely only be my primary elk rifle on one hunt if I draw before getting the Browning. I'm trying to decide what the perfect match of performance and recoil will be for this. My choices using this action are the 6.5x284, 270 win, and 280 ackley improved. I'm planning on staying with a 24" barrel as anything longer gets unhandy to hunt with and carry in my eberlestock scabbard. I'd actually prefer to go 23" but I know I'd lose to much unless I go with a 270 win. I'm proficient with my current rifles under decent conditions at 500 but not comfortable shooting game past that unless conditions are ideal. I'm going to consider this a 500yd gun and not worry about chasing BC because at 500yds there just isn't that much difference in drop or wind drift. I'm also going to figure my velocites a little under max for barrel life and so I won't be disappointed. Here is what I'm considering as options and their 300, 400, and 500yd drops with a 200yd zero, plus the approximate powder charges of IMR 4831 to get them there in a 24" barrel.

6.5x284 140gr berger at 2800fps -7.29, -20.84, -41.43 /50gr powder
6.5x284 140gr AccuBond at 2800fps -7.62, -21.97, -44.12 /50gr powder

270 win 140gr AccuBond at 3000fps -6.54, -18.95, -38.13 /58gr

280 ackley 140gr AccuBond at 3100fps -6.10, -17.72, -35.72 60gr
280 ackley 150gr scirocco at 3000fps -6.48, -18.72, -37.60 /?
280 ackley 160gr AccuBond at 2850fps -7.06, -20.24, -40.32 /57gr

Wind drift numbers are all within 3 inches at 500yds also, the differences in BC are mostly offset by the differences in velocity at this range. Another factor that I consider in this is that if I set my turret to MPBR with a max rise over line of sight of 2.8"and leave it like I normally do unless I have time to range for a long shot it favors the higher velocity choices.

So if you were building this, what would be your choice for an ideal light recoiling muley rifle that would also take elk if necessary? Thanks for the help.

 

[nvbroncrider]

Go with the 280 AI your going to get better numbers out of it than what you posted. Plus the bullets avalible for it are awesome. The 6.5 is intriguing but since you have a true long action you might as well take full advantage of it. Plus you could always load the 175 PT and that gives you a great advantage in terminal performance over the 6.5 or 270.

 

[alaska100]

280 A. I. is an awesome round, you will not be disappointed

 

[JD338]

mcseal2,

I agree with nvbroncrider and go with the 280 AI.
You can get the 140 gr to 3200+ and the 160 gr to 3000 fps from a 24" barrel.
Recoil will not be bad at all in a 8 lb package, the 280 AI is just slightly more than the 6.5-284.

There are several 280 AI shooters here too so we can assist you with load data.

JD338

 

[DrMike]

I'm with the others: go with the 280 AI. It will handle elk nicely and everything smaller.

 

[ScreaminEagle]

It's no secret that I'm a 280 fanatic, so that is what gets my vote!

 

[Guest]

If it were me, I'd be looking at the .284cal options, but I'm not a huge AI fan, so I'd consider the standard 280Rem. It's really your choice on that, though. For your stated purpose, you're not going to be undergunned with the 270Win, by any means, except on possibly the largest bull elk. I'm not sure how much advantage the 280 or 280AI would offer in that department. I'm inclined to say the 270Win with a 150gr Partition is plenty of elk medicine, but then again I've never hunted elk to say for sure.

If you're interested in a 300WSM Browning, I believe I know where a used one is now. Check this out:

http://www.marksgunsearch.com/details/1 ... ng-a-bolt/

I've not looked at this particular gun, but the receiver appears to be the darker color of titanium. A quick call to the boys at Mark's will have the info in hand. If it is a MountainTi, it could be a great deal, as I'm betting there's at least $50 or maybe $80 worth of negotiating room on that rifle. I've done business with this shop for about 20yrs now, and they're good folks. They'll ship to your ffl at cost, rather than gouge you on the shipping, too.

 

[gerry]

Any of them would be good, why choose a 280 AI over a standard 280 Remington? It's a great round as well and not really that far behind when they are both loaded up to their potential.

 

[muleman]

mcseal2,
I think your action size dictates your cartridge choice. The 280AI would be my choice and if it were short action I'd opt for the 6.5-284. Both are on my short list to build!

Good luck and keep us posted on your endeavors(including pictures)!

Scott

 

[Guy Miner]

"Since the gun has sentimental value and I already have it, it will be the base for my new build."

Those are terrific reasons for using it! No secret here about how sentimental I am about continuing to use good old family rifles... I don't think you're going to have any problem achieving your desired 8 lb weight. Weight isn't the only consideration for a mountain rifle, but it does play a role. The 24" barrel is nice too. Keeps the blast a little farther from the shooter. I like that. I like that MPI stock too.

Couple of thoughts for consideration:

The Talley rings are likely a good idea. A 6x Leupold is only 10 ounces...

.25-06 - it's what I use in my "mountain rifle" and it whacks mule deer very nicely while leaving my shoulder feeling just fine. Light recoil, flat trajectory, good accuracy, venison in the freezer and antlers on the wall. This one and the 6mm Rem convinced me that I don't need a cannon to take deer.

6.5-06 ? Makes full use of your long action rifle. A buddy has one as his mule deer & match rifle. Very nice. Great bullets available!

.270 - I don't know why I don't have one of these. Never have. The doggone thing pretty much defines what a light-recoiling, game taking cartridge is all about. No trick at all to see 3,100 fps using a great 130 gr bullet. It's really everything I like about the .25-06, and (ahem) perhaps even better...

.280/.280 AI - excellent! Either way is good. Heck, Nosler even makes ammo for the .280 AI now. I have heard that not all .280 AI chambers are the same, and that Nosler ammo may not even fit in all of them... I was a true 7mm Rem mag kind of guy, and JD338's ballistic figures for his .280 AI showed me that his rifle was right on the tail of the 7mm mag w/o the belt, and with a smaller powder charge. Interesting indeed.

.30-06 - well - why not? 2800 fps with a sleek 180 gr AccuBond (impressive .507 BC) is a real winner... bear, elk, mule deer... I like the 165's myself, but the 180 probably brings out the best from the good old .30-06 cartridge. It's a long-proven winner!

The cool thing is McSeal - that it's your rifle, your father's rifle, and it's going to be your mountain rifle. Whatever cartridge you select, it's going to be a winner. You'll still have that family traditional rifle thing going, all the pride and memories that come flooding back from using something you first saw afield a very long time ago. That adds a lot of satisfaction.

Please keep us updated. I'm very interested in your mountain rifle project!

Guy

 

[6mm Remington]

I think that's a great build you are working on and you will only make more wonderful memories with it when it's completed. I believe I would go 280 or 280AI. I've never owned or shot a 280AI, but I do love the plain old .280. They both are equally as good.

Keep us updated with photo's and stories. Must have both!
David

 

[BK]

I wouldn't even look at going .270... but that may be my bias against it creeping in! .280 makes the most sense, as I like a little heavier bullet than what is the usual in a 6.5 for elk. Not that a 6.5 isn't capable on elk. I might add a VX3 in 2.5-8x36 to your optics list.

 

[Thebear_78]

My "mountain" rifle is still a work in progress but here is my specs. Remington 700 long action that has been lightened asa much as possible, Talley light weight rings, Leupold compact 3-9 scope, 22" featherweight contoured stainless barrel, fluted, and lone wolf summit Xl stock with aluminum adl bottom metal. I guessing final weight will be 5.5-5.75 scoped.

its chambered in 280 right now but I recently picked up a 280 ackley reamer and have been contemplating punching it to AI. Those 280 Ackly rounds are sure sexy looking with that abrupt 40 degree shoulder. My buddy is doing a very similar rifle in 6.5-06. Either of those will be great in a long action with standard bolt face and should work well in 22-24" barrel. Don't be afraid to go with the 6.5-284 in a long action, You can really stretch out your COL in a long action to take advantage of long VLD bullets without losing case capacity. The performance is very similar to the 6.5-06 and brass is easy to make from the 06 brass.

Here is an ultra light 338 federal that my buddy built. Lightened remington M7 action with 21" fluted custom contour douglas barrel with leuold compact 3-9 and NECG sights with custom peep built into scope base. Total weight 4 lbs 15.6oz scoped.

 

[FOTIS]

Go with the 280 AI !

 

[mcseal2]

Thanks for all the replys.

I'll try to answer a few of the questions, and share my thoughts. I've traded lots of guns over the years figuring out what I really like, and having fun working up loads and shooting them. I've definitely developed some bias also. I want to stay away from the 6.5-06 and 30-06. The 6.5-06 is a great performer, but I don't feel it necessary to go through the slight hassle of re-sizing and trimming brass since the others perform so similar. As far as the 30-06, I've had several and just never been a huge fan. When I get another 30 cal it will be capable of 3000fps with 180gr, or 2850fps with 200gr accubonds and have a brake. I won't use it on things smaller than elk unless I'm in big bear country. I also left the standard 280 off, and to be honest that's unfair of me. I've had a couple and could never get close to advertised velocities with the Hodgdon extreme powders I like to use. I say I'm being unfair because they both had 22" barrels and I really think they needed at least 24". The 270 win has always been a good performer for me with a shorter barrel. I got 3175fps with 130gr accubonds from a Tikka M695 with a 22 5/8" barrel, and 2950fps with 150gr ballistic tips from a 20" barreled M70 my gunsmith built for me. I liked that rifle, but my gunsmith's son fell in love with it after borrowing it so I traded it back to him. I traded the Tikka because I found the safety would rub into the fire position on my pack when I carried it over my left shoulder at times. I prefer 3 position or tang safeties on all my rifles now.

On to what I do like.
I think I could get 3000fps from a 24" 270 pretty easily and I've taken a couple deer with a 270WSM shooting the 140gr AccuBond at that speed with excellent performance. I also have 2 turrets for the Leupold CDS set up for the 140gr AccuBond at this speed that I could put right on the new rifle. I really want to stick with that scope also. I know I could get a lighter one, but I have 3 of the 4.5x14's with the varmint hunter reticle I really like. They are what I shoot all my coyotes with and I'm real comfortable with them. The one I plan to use on the new rifle I sent in last year and got the CDS system installed for when I have time to dial.

I do like the 6.5's also because I do most of my hunting with a 264WM. I've wrote about it on here before, a friend went to gunsmith school and needed rifles to work on to graduate. He rebuilt my new factory 7 mag to a custom 300WM for the price of parts and I killed everything from prairie dogs to deer. I eventually shot the barrel out of it and developed my flinch in the process. The rifle weighs 10.15lbs ready to hunt and I really only use it on flat ground, so when I went to a new barrel my gunsmith convinced me to try the 264WM. It is and will remain my go to gun when the weight isn't a huge issue. It has taken 4 of the 5 whitetail on my wall, as well as my biggest muley. Hopefully it will get a chance to take my biggest antelope this fall. It's a good low-recoil rifle that is real easy to shoot well at that weight, and the 264 with the 140gr AccuBond will probably always be my choice on flat ground. The results I've had with the 264 and the 270WSM with the 140gr accubonds at recoil levels that don't bother me are largely what led to my options here. Both those bullets have retain 60-65% on every one I've recovered at ranges from 180-404yds on a variety of shot angles. I've never recovered one from closer range. The ones I've recovered at were all from sharply quartering angles where they penetrated alot of deer, broke alot of bone, and ended up under the hide. I shot my biggest muley with the 264WM behind the last rib and found the bullet under the hide in his neck. The one I recovered at 404yds was from the 270WSM on a buck I finished for another hunter. He had crippled a small 4x4 shooting from ridiculous range and managed to break a back leg about 6" above the hoof. I finished the buck before he dropped into a big canyon where he would have been lost. I took the only shot I had and broke his spine about 8" from his tailhead, and found that bullet in the opposite shoulder under the hide. The guy was real thankful, we showed him how to quarter the buck and I kept the bullet.

As I write this and think of what you all wrote, I have to admit I'm leaning toward the 280AI. I'll still likely go with 140-150gr bullets (I'd love to see a 7mm 150gr AccuBond) to keep the speed up and recoil down. I've always thought I could tell a big difference in recoil between the 140 and 160gr bullets I've shot through several 7mm rem mags. I wouldn't have had an ackley on the list a few years ago, but with factory brass available it becomes much more tempting. I still really like the idea of the 270 win, but there aren't as many bullets available for it with a real high BC. I'd pretty much be banking on finding a load with the 140gr AccuBond to keep the BC up real close to .500 and speed at 3000fps for a bullet I really like.

I guess I need to get my action weighed and see how much weight I have left for the barrel. If I can get a 24" #3 contour fluted barrel by going with the larger .284 bore rather than going with a lighter contour un-fluted barrel that may be the deciding factor.

Thanks for the help, I'll keep you posted and get pics when the project finally gets completed. I've sold off most of my guns over the last few years to fund building the ones I kept into exactly what I want. With the wait for a barrel from Lilja, Kreiger, and Pac Nor I'd better get something going soon. My 6mm I use for coyotes and my girlfriend will use for antelope is a tackdriver with it's 25" #4 Kreiger, and the 204 I had built last spring shoots real well with it's 23" Pac-Nor also. I haven't tried Lilja but need to see what they all offer again and refresh my memory.

Thanks again.

 

[mcseal2]

If it were me, I'd be looking at the .284cal options, but I'm not a huge AI fan, so I'd consider the standard 280Rem. It's really your choice on that, though. For your stated purpose, you're not going to be undergunned with the 270Win, by any means, except on possibly the largest bull elk. I'm not sure how much advantage the 280 or 280AI would offer in that department. I'm inclined to say the 270Win with a 150gr Partition is plenty of elk medicine, but then again I've never hunted elk to say for sure.

If you're interested in a 300WSM Browning, I believe I know where a used one is now. Check this out:

http://www.marksgunsearch.com/details/1 ... ng-a-bolt/

I've not looked at this particular gun, but the receiver appears to be the darker color of titanium. A quick call to the boys at Mark's will have the info in hand. If it is a MountainTi, it could be a great deal, as I'm betting there's at least $50 or maybe $80 worth of negotiating room on that rifle. I've done business with this shop for about 20yrs now, and they're good folks. They'll ship to your ffl at cost, rather than gouge you on the shipping, too.

Looks like a really good deal, but I really want to get this other project done first. I already know I didn't draw an elk tag for this fall, but may still get one for a muley. Thanks for the link though if was going elk hunting first and had my priorities switched I'd jump on it.

 

[Woodycreek]

Another vote for the 280AI. I would like to make my next AI a 280AI but that 6.5-280AI looks good also.

 

[mcseal2]

Well I got my action weighed today. It's an expensive blessing to have my gunsmith live a mile down the road.

The complete action with all the hardware weighs 2lbs 9.3oz or 41.3oz

So here is what I'm looking at for weight.
Complete action 41.3oz
Complete stock 28oz
Leupold 4.5-14x40 13.8oz
Talley mounts 3oz (guesstimated)
Sling 3.5oz
Ammo 4oz

Total = 93.6oz or 5.85lbs

To get to an 8lb rifle this leaves me 34.4oz for barrel weight. Pac Nor has a good weight calculator for barrels on their website. According to this a 24" #3 contour barrel with 6 flutes in .284 cal would weigh 2.76lbs (44.16oz). This would put me at 137.8oz or 8.61lbs total weight. Going to an unfluted #2 would be heavier by their chart. Time for more research. I emailed Mcmillian also to get a better idea what their Hunter's edge stock could be made to weigh. I think I could cut 4oz there, and I could live with 8.5lbs I think. I just definitely don't want to go heavier than that. I will also check the other barrel makers and see what their lighter fluted barrels would weigh.

 

[SJB358]

I think the others are right on MC. The 280AI seems to really fit the bill you are wanting. Great speed with the 140's and 160's, plus, good use of powder. I can't really see you losing out at all. It really would handle elk excellent as well. Your Winchester build seems excellent and can't wait to see what it looks like. It really sounds like a first class rig. Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[sask boy]

The 280 might be one of the most under rated calibers out there so the AI should be just as good.
I would not hesitate for a moment on starting to build the 280 AI

Blessings,
Dan