Orezona
Beginner
- Jan 23, 2020
- 96
- 86
Or use a press mounted bullet puller, pour the powder out, take a picure and then dissect the case. That way you dont contaminate the powder and can send quality pictures to the powder manufacturer.
Hodgdon replied back
- Thread starter TackDriver284
- Start date
Well, no love from Hodgdon. I called them this morning, and they refused to own their bad product. The guy fed me a line about it being tested to "the 10-year NATO standard" for shelf life, blah, blah, blah. No replacement offered. So I waited until this afternoon and submitted an email thru their website, thinking maybe I'd have better luck. Here's their answer:
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate that you are handling this powder in a safe manner. Hodgdon takes the stability of our powder seriously. For IMR 4166, we have tested it against the NATO standard for powder storage. This storage test verifies that the powder can be used within 10 years of manufacture. For this type of powder, the 10-year window was reached in 2024. Please note that there can be a lag between the manufactured powder date and the canning date. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused.
Sorry, there will be no replacements for this powder
We can replace the corroded metal lids on the other jugs, how many do you have?
These powders can be sowed over grass for safe disposal
Thank You for using our powders and have a blessed day!
--------------
Disappointing, to say the least. I let them know that their answer was not acceptable:
Thank you for your reply.
I currently have 2-3 dozen pounds of powder sitting on my shelf, all but one of them are Hodgdon, IMR, Accurate, or Ramshot. In over 30 years of reloading and hundreds of pounds of powder, I have never had a single pound of powder degrade and become unusable, let alone 2 of the same lot within a handful of years since purchase.
You can hide behind that "10-year NATO standard" baloney if that's what you prefer, but I have never, ever heard of any such "standard" being applied to canister powders in the past. Perhaps you should have sold all that powder to NATO, then. For recreational reloaders such as myself, it is not uncommon to have powder sit on the shelf for 5, 10, even 20+ years before it is used up. I certainly have old powders in my inventory. When's the last time SR7625 or HS-7 was being made? There are 2.5 lbs of it on my shelf, along with a metal can of IMR 3031. All perfectly usable and unspoiled.
Rest assured that if I am going to spend my money to replace this powder, it will cost you more in lost sales than the cost of replacement. VV N140 appears to be a fine substitute for 4166, and I'm betting will last longer than 5 years on my shelf, "NATO standard" be damned. Since I'll need to work up new loads to replace the previous 4166 loads, someone else can earn the profit and my business.
Have a good day, sir.
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate that you are handling this powder in a safe manner. Hodgdon takes the stability of our powder seriously. For IMR 4166, we have tested it against the NATO standard for powder storage. This storage test verifies that the powder can be used within 10 years of manufacture. For this type of powder, the 10-year window was reached in 2024. Please note that there can be a lag between the manufactured powder date and the canning date. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused.
Sorry, there will be no replacements for this powder
We can replace the corroded metal lids on the other jugs, how many do you have?
These powders can be sowed over grass for safe disposal
Thank You for using our powders and have a blessed day!
--------------
Disappointing, to say the least. I let them know that their answer was not acceptable:
Thank you for your reply.
I currently have 2-3 dozen pounds of powder sitting on my shelf, all but one of them are Hodgdon, IMR, Accurate, or Ramshot. In over 30 years of reloading and hundreds of pounds of powder, I have never had a single pound of powder degrade and become unusable, let alone 2 of the same lot within a handful of years since purchase.
You can hide behind that "10-year NATO standard" baloney if that's what you prefer, but I have never, ever heard of any such "standard" being applied to canister powders in the past. Perhaps you should have sold all that powder to NATO, then. For recreational reloaders such as myself, it is not uncommon to have powder sit on the shelf for 5, 10, even 20+ years before it is used up. I certainly have old powders in my inventory. When's the last time SR7625 or HS-7 was being made? There are 2.5 lbs of it on my shelf, along with a metal can of IMR 3031. All perfectly usable and unspoiled.
Rest assured that if I am going to spend my money to replace this powder, it will cost you more in lost sales than the cost of replacement. VV N140 appears to be a fine substitute for 4166, and I'm betting will last longer than 5 years on my shelf, "NATO standard" be damned. Since I'll need to work up new loads to replace the previous 4166 loads, someone else can earn the profit and my business.
Have a good day, sir.
RL338
Handloader
- Mar 23, 2017
- 4,841
- 8,466
Sounds like a load of BS to me. I don’t recall that powder series being sold with that disclaimer.
Probably explains this case failure I had a few months back. I had chalked it up to bad brass, but now I believe that the 4166 had corroded it and/or caused overpressure.
Bruce Mc
Handloader
- Oct 26, 2005
- 1,507
- 1,205
I posted this in Feb 2023. This round had been loaded for 8 months. I noticed the powder was going bad so I pulled bullets on everything I previously loaded. This was IMR-4155. I wonder what the results would of been if I pulled the trigger on them.
Last edited:
- Nov 4, 2004
- 27,407
- 14,297
It sounds like that powder has a chemistry issue for long term stability.
I last year I finished of an 8 lb tin jug of High Score 700X shotgun powder that was from the early 1980’s. Not a single dud or hangfire, they all fired on the trap field. The only problem was they didn’t all break the clay birds.
JD338
I last year I finished of an 8 lb tin jug of High Score 700X shotgun powder that was from the early 1980’s. Not a single dud or hangfire, they all fired on the trap field. The only problem was they didn’t all break the clay birds.
JD338
Yep. That's exactly what I meant in my response to Hodgdon. Maximum 10yr shelf life is not reasonable for the average reloader.It sounds like that powder has a chemistry issue for long term stability.
I last year I finished of an 8 lb tin jug of High Score 700X shotgun powder that was from the early 1980’s. Not a single dud or hangfire, they all fired on the trap field. The only problem was they didn’t all break the clay birds.
JD338
- Nov 4, 2004
- 27,407
- 14,297
I agree! I have other powders that are in metal and cardboard containers like W760 and H110. They have always been in a cool dry environment. That’s why I believe it’s a chemistry issue.
JD338
I'm certain that they are aware of the root cause, but they are using that weak excuse as their escape hatch. A recall would have been the correct response, but then they have to admit there's a problem, and that opens them up to other exposure. So they pretend it's not a problem at all.
Bruce Mc
Handloader
- Oct 26, 2005
- 1,507
- 1,205
They don't want to admit any fault in case of future damage responsibility.
Exactly.
my gut told me there would probably be issues with the loaded ammo . heck the powder is eating the lids off the containers , and he lids are sealed and not touching the powder . it would almost have to do something to what it's touching .
but hey , we'll send you new lids .
but hey , we'll send you new lids .
It's worse than that. The rusted lids were on other cans of powder, not the 4166 (it has plastic lids). Those escaping fumes were attacking nearby cans. Crazy.
But, hey...it meets the NATO standard. They'd better hope that NATO burned up all the ammo that was loaded with that crap before it turned.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 27,407
- 14,297
I bet your ammunition glows in the dark. 
JD338
JD338
Without going to the trouble of cutting brass, I decided to use my borescope to take a peek inside the 30-06 cases that had been loaded with 4166. I believe that these were loaded back around 2016 or 2017.
For a reference data point, I pulled another case that had been loaded probably longer than the ones in question, but with IMR 4064 powder. It looked just as I would expect.
Now for some of the ones that had 4166.
You can see the corrosion that is very apparent in those pics. Also, you will notice that there are kernels of powder still in there. In some of them, the powder that I dumped appeared to be pretty normal. But in others, it appeared to be damp, sticky, and clumpy. Those kernels are remaining even after I gave the cases a blast of compressed air.
Nothing to see here, move along...
For a reference data point, I pulled another case that had been loaded probably longer than the ones in question, but with IMR 4064 powder. It looked just as I would expect.
Now for some of the ones that had 4166.
You can see the corrosion that is very apparent in those pics. Also, you will notice that there are kernels of powder still in there. In some of them, the powder that I dumped appeared to be pretty normal. But in others, it appeared to be damp, sticky, and clumpy. Those kernels are remaining even after I gave the cases a blast of compressed air.
Nothing to see here, move along...
RL338
Handloader
- Mar 23, 2017
- 4,841
- 8,466
I wonder those who have 8-10 year old loaded ammo , what would be the outcome of squeezing the trigger on one of them.
You would think Hodgdon would buy back all that powder before someone finds out the hard way.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 38,292
- 8,530
Who needs tracers!I bet your ammunition glows in the dark.
JD338
You might give some thought into a good running fridge. I have two out in one of my sheds that easily gets as hot as 125+*. I've been doing it that way for years after the wife freaked out about a dozen 8pound cannisters of various powders. When you plan to use a powder, bring the tou plan on using into the house and let it warm up slowly. Just something you might want to look at.Called and left a message within the IMR website concerning the Enduron powders that went bad a few weeks ago, got an email back and they asked for pictures and sent those to them. Haven't heard from them since, called them again and they asked for another email since the other guy was supposedly on vacation according to the 2nd person and left another email with pictures, no response since. So I emailed again and asked if I was being ignored after calling and speaking with them and after sending them 2 emails, he apologized and mentioned that the powders go bad with heat.
My garage is divided into 2 sections, one side where the A/C duct is connected and is 75 degrees. It's where I keep my powder and other items and the 2nd section which is the 2 car garage is where I have my reloading bench, and tools, etc and the temps are around 80-85 in the summer. Not sure if 75 degrees has that much of an effect since no powder other than Enduron and one can of IMR 4831 went bad in my last 25 years of reloading. The guy said that they did not have any Enduron 7977 at the moment, and asked me I wanted any other powders besides that, since H1000 almost has the same burn rate as the 7977, so I asked for the H1000 since its very popular and temp stable. A package arrived at my door just now and in it was 3 lbs of H1000. As of last week, I relocated all my powder and primers to a closet next to my office where its 70 degrees.
Thank you Hodgdon.
PJ
My uncle bought military surplus powder after the Korean war. seventy years later it still works!
