I finally recieved my case,& cartridge checker from Forester.I checked a batch of 50 I had loaded a few weeks ago,& found allmost all of them to be @ .0001"-.003".But I had 4 that were@ .004",& one that was @ .005".The instructions said anything above .004" was suspect.My question is.What is a good tolerance for a match competition load?Should I neck trim anything over .002"?
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How much runout is too much?
- Thread starter Bigwheels
- Start date
rick smith
Handloader
- Apr 6, 2005
- 1,249
- 0
If you are shooting benchrest comp., you want zero runout. Standard hunting rifle, four and below. You may have to adjust your dies, press, shellholder, etc. to lessen runout. Turning necks will help but if you don't have a tight neck in the rifle, you could lessen case life and not realize any better groups.Rick.
longwinters
Handloader
- Oct 10, 2004
- 1,476
- 1
From what I have read if you have one side of the case that is off, thus the need to turn it, that deviation probably runs the length of the case. If I have any that run .04 or more I either use them for just messing around or they are in the garbage. I use the Sinclair concentricity gauge and it can be an eye opener. By the way, the .04 does seem to be the cut off point for reasonable, consistent, accuracy.
Long
Long
- Thread starter
- #4
I sat down this morning,& checked a batch of 100 rnds.Out of those,I found there was 2 @ .005", 4 @ .004",& 30 @ .003".The rest measureed @ .002" or less.That's consistant with the 1 on 10+/- that were flyers during competitions.I think the ones @ .003" may be the ones that were 10 rings,& the ones that were .004"+ were the ones that threw the 9's.I guess I've learned something.I'll have to buy more brass,& check them before I reload.I'll still take any,& all thoughts on the matter,as I've only been reloading for competition for a few months.Thanks.
Bigwheels":i27ha5z6 said:I sat down this morning,& checked a batch of 100 rnds.Out of those,I found there was 2 @ .005", 4 @ .004",& 30 @ .003".The rest measureed @ .002" or less.That's consistant with the 1 on 10+/- that were flyers during competitions.I think the ones @ .003" may be the ones that were 10 rings,& the ones that were .004"+ were the ones that threw the 9's.I guess I've learned something.I'll have to buy more brass,& check them before I reload.I'll still take any,& all thoughts on the matter,as I've only been reloading for competition for a few months.Thanks.
Bigwheels:
I guess, if you get any more 9's and 10's with runout down to .002, you'll have to attribute them to something else.
:roll:
Sorry I just couldn't help myself.
Smitty of the North
- Thread starter
- #6
rick smith
Handloader
- Apr 6, 2005
- 1,249
- 0
Bigwheels, just to keep us all on the same page: neck trimming is for length, neck turning is to uniform the thickness of the neck. You will need a tubing mic to check thickness of the necks or set the turning cutter to clean about 90% around the case neck. If you are shooting a tight necked rifle, you need to know the dimentions of the chamber neck so you can turn to the correct thickness. Much discussion has taken place on how much clearance you need in the neck for a fired case. Some benchrest necks don't require sizing after being fired. Too much clearance can shorten case life and work harden the necks faster.
I would be more concerned with case runout after they have been fired in your rifle. Looking at the case mouths of new brass and you realize how much abuse the cases have had just getting to your loading bench. The type competition you shoot and the rifle you use will influence the loading necessary.
For your own education, take ten new ,unfired, cases that have various amounts of runout. Have someone other than yourself mark the cases for runout, the old blind study. Prep them all the same, shoot them all in practice, check the runout on the fired cases. Compare your results with the original runout.
You can introduce runout during your loading. You need to check runout after each function at the bench. Expander balls have ruined runout on many cases.Rick.
I would be more concerned with case runout after they have been fired in your rifle. Looking at the case mouths of new brass and you realize how much abuse the cases have had just getting to your loading bench. The type competition you shoot and the rifle you use will influence the loading necessary.
For your own education, take ten new ,unfired, cases that have various amounts of runout. Have someone other than yourself mark the cases for runout, the old blind study. Prep them all the same, shoot them all in practice, check the runout on the fired cases. Compare your results with the original runout.
You can introduce runout during your loading. You need to check runout after each function at the bench. Expander balls have ruined runout on many cases.Rick.
bigcountry
Beginner
- Jan 21, 2007
- 4
- 0
I have fought runout for years, but found a very interesting tip the other day.
After years of reloading, and fighting bullet runout, I think I have found the solution. I have bought competition seaters, neck turning kits, and multiple dies and different brands of shell holders. Some calibers, I fight runout every time, some not at all.
I have found the culprit in my setup. The shellholder. These shell holders are made with slop to accomidate many calibers. That slop is killing me. My usual setup for bullet seating includes squaring the dies, and turning 3 times during the bullet seat little at a time. I usually get 30% of the loaded rounds with runout >.005", which is unacceptable to me. When questioning loads or working up loads, why not take out another possible component I say.
Ok, I was watching my rim of the brass relative to its position in the shell holder. If I just lower my ram handle to touch the bullet seater plug with the bullet, and bounce back out, I notice the rim, of the brass moving over in the shell holder .005 or more from the end of the shell holder. So when I put brass in and shove it in the holder and push a bullet in, I am shoving it in cockeyed cause of play in the shell holder.
So here was my experiement. I loaded 20 7mm-08 rounds by doing the regular lay the bullet in the shell holder to its extent, and seating the bullet turning 1/3 turn 2 times during the seating.
I then loaded 20 7mm08 rounds a little different. I would raise my ram until I could feel the bullet hit the seater plug, I would then lower my ram, and you could see the brass being centered in the shell holder by a very small amount, I would then push in the bullet a small amount. I would then turn the brass 1/3 turn, and touch the bullet to the plug, and back back out and would see the brass move over centering itself relative to the seater plug and then lower the handle all the way to finish the seating.
Results. 20 the old way had bullet runout ranging from .001" to .012". 30 to 40% had runout between .004 and .007". Thats enough to see the bullet wobble if you rolled it on a mirror.
20 loaded the new tedious way, I had 100% of the loads had runout less than .005". Which is just great for hunting. Over 80% had runout less than .003". Which I consider almost match quality straightness.
So I can conclude that with that shell holder/press/bullet seater combo, there is some slop in the shell holder or press. Some rounds I never have issues, and notice when I load the new tedious way, the brass does not scoot over any at all in the shell holder when I touch the bullet to the seater plug and back out.
I know some on here are tired of reloading after years and years of doing it and this post is not for you. But those who like the dynamics of reloading and getting straight ammo, try it out for yourself. Some of my rifles, shoot great with bad runout or good. Some like my magnums do not like alot of runout.
There is alot more components to consider also. Like varying neck thickness, and FL sizers knocking the necks out. This can be checked before seating or charging. If your necks are out of center then nothing you can do, will help.
Just a tip.
After years of reloading, and fighting bullet runout, I think I have found the solution. I have bought competition seaters, neck turning kits, and multiple dies and different brands of shell holders. Some calibers, I fight runout every time, some not at all.
I have found the culprit in my setup. The shellholder. These shell holders are made with slop to accomidate many calibers. That slop is killing me. My usual setup for bullet seating includes squaring the dies, and turning 3 times during the bullet seat little at a time. I usually get 30% of the loaded rounds with runout >.005", which is unacceptable to me. When questioning loads or working up loads, why not take out another possible component I say.
Ok, I was watching my rim of the brass relative to its position in the shell holder. If I just lower my ram handle to touch the bullet seater plug with the bullet, and bounce back out, I notice the rim, of the brass moving over in the shell holder .005 or more from the end of the shell holder. So when I put brass in and shove it in the holder and push a bullet in, I am shoving it in cockeyed cause of play in the shell holder.
So here was my experiement. I loaded 20 7mm-08 rounds by doing the regular lay the bullet in the shell holder to its extent, and seating the bullet turning 1/3 turn 2 times during the seating.
I then loaded 20 7mm08 rounds a little different. I would raise my ram until I could feel the bullet hit the seater plug, I would then lower my ram, and you could see the brass being centered in the shell holder by a very small amount, I would then push in the bullet a small amount. I would then turn the brass 1/3 turn, and touch the bullet to the plug, and back back out and would see the brass move over centering itself relative to the seater plug and then lower the handle all the way to finish the seating.
Results. 20 the old way had bullet runout ranging from .001" to .012". 30 to 40% had runout between .004 and .007". Thats enough to see the bullet wobble if you rolled it on a mirror.
20 loaded the new tedious way, I had 100% of the loads had runout less than .005". Which is just great for hunting. Over 80% had runout less than .003". Which I consider almost match quality straightness.
So I can conclude that with that shell holder/press/bullet seater combo, there is some slop in the shell holder or press. Some rounds I never have issues, and notice when I load the new tedious way, the brass does not scoot over any at all in the shell holder when I touch the bullet to the seater plug and back out.
I know some on here are tired of reloading after years and years of doing it and this post is not for you. But those who like the dynamics of reloading and getting straight ammo, try it out for yourself. Some of my rifles, shoot great with bad runout or good. Some like my magnums do not like alot of runout.
There is alot more components to consider also. Like varying neck thickness, and FL sizers knocking the necks out. This can be checked before seating or charging. If your necks are out of center then nothing you can do, will help.
Just a tip.
Here's what I paste for a response when people are talking runnout.
I believe all dies need "tuning" to get the expander as much in the middle of the die as possible....this is how I do it.....:
My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die and could pull a case slightly off center??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.
I believe all dies need "tuning" to get the expander as much in the middle of the die as possible....this is how I do it.....:
My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die and could pull a case slightly off center??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.
I've spent my share of time battling runout too guys.I've tried just about all of the methods mentioned above, with varying degrees of success.
Like most of you I've considered all the factors involved and realized that any one of the pieces of equipment can be responsible. The case itself, the die, the shellholder and even the press.
I also realize it can be operator error, but I'm pretty careful in all the steps and check runout after every operation. Nothing more frustrating than checking runout on a fired case neck and finding less than .001, then running it through either a FL or a neck sizer and finding .003 or worse. If the neck isn't concentric after sizing there's no way the bullet will be centered.
I've about decided to try a Forster Co-Ax press. I've never used one, but from what I understand they have jaws that grasp the case and don't require a shellholder. This would eliminate one part of the equation, a sloppy shellholder. Although I guess it's possible the jaws could be out of line, that would be another can of worms.
I'm sure there are plenty of Co-Ax users in here, what's your opinion? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Do you still have runout problems?
I already use mostly Forster Benchrest dies, but in a Rockchucker. Maybe matching all my equipment up will help. How about it?
Thanks, Bacova
Like most of you I've considered all the factors involved and realized that any one of the pieces of equipment can be responsible. The case itself, the die, the shellholder and even the press.
I also realize it can be operator error, but I'm pretty careful in all the steps and check runout after every operation. Nothing more frustrating than checking runout on a fired case neck and finding less than .001, then running it through either a FL or a neck sizer and finding .003 or worse. If the neck isn't concentric after sizing there's no way the bullet will be centered.
I've about decided to try a Forster Co-Ax press. I've never used one, but from what I understand they have jaws that grasp the case and don't require a shellholder. This would eliminate one part of the equation, a sloppy shellholder. Although I guess it's possible the jaws could be out of line, that would be another can of worms.
I'm sure there are plenty of Co-Ax users in here, what's your opinion? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Do you still have runout problems?
I already use mostly Forster Benchrest dies, but in a Rockchucker. Maybe matching all my equipment up will help. How about it?
Thanks, Bacova
rick smith
Handloader
- Apr 6, 2005
- 1,249
- 0
I have used a Co-Ax for years and that press works much better in helping to eliminate run out. Neither the case or the die is held firmly enough to stop movement. Thought at first that would be a major problem, too use to standard presses where the die is screwed in tight. But that movement helps in centering the die/case. It works as well as some of the straight line dies/arbor presses that I have tried. Still have a couple of presses with screw in dies but they don't see much use.Rick.
longwinters
Handloader
- Oct 10, 2004
- 1,476
- 1
I have found the same results as Kraky. Got the tip from RCBS and tried it. I have great results when ck'd with the concentricity gauge.
Long
Long
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