How to cook a Wolf?

[elkeater2]

lrh wrote "Ok, read this statement: Any species that wants nothing more than to survive is bound not be our terms, but its own."

Please explain or write a more coherent sentence.....

 

[IdahoCTD]

Idaho F&G has been mis-managing our game herds for years in their quest for the all mighty dollar. Now they have the wolves to pass the blame on to so the attention moves away from themselves. I tried to do my biology senior seminar on game management in '94 and couldn't get a straight answer from anyone at F&G. It just so happens that the winter of '93/'94 was one of the worse in the past 30 years. Many areas lost over 80% of their deer. F&G wouldn't admit to any of it yet during the next hunting season the result spoke for them self and the deer herds in SW Idaho haven't been even remotely close to the '93 numbers since then. A prime example is unit 44 and 45 where they have a drawing for 225 and 75 buck tags respectively but give out over 1200 does tags every year and have since the 1993 season. Doesn't seem like they care much for the herds to me when they allow the potential harvest of 4 times the numbers of does to bucks. Granted there are a lot of landowner tags on those units for bucks but the ratio is still way off of even.

I hunted the edge of unit 44 in '93 and in '94. In '93 I saw 34 bucks and 28 were 4 point or better with numerous pushing 30". I shot a 33" buck that year. That was in a 24 hour period. The next year I saw 7 bucks with only one of them of decent size. It was around 27-28". Since then the results have been nearly the same with only seeing 4 to 7 bucks/year. I use to email F&G yearly asking them to reduce the doe tags in 43,44, and 45 (and I know I wasn't alone) yet nothing has been done.

 

[longrangehunter]

lrh wrote "Ok, read this statement: Any species that wants nothing more than to survive is bound not be our terms, but its own."

Please explain or write a more coherent sentence.....

In short.... The wolves were never just going to stay put in Yellow Stone N.P., there is no real fences keeping them in. And once out, and into public and private lands they aren't bound to our terms. Meaning that they're opportunistic predators that don't care about fences that were put up only to keep cattle in, or where to roam and not to venture. They will eat whatever they can hunt, and since animals move when pushed so do the wolves, taking them where ever they can find food to survive.

Nor would be any different then if a Doctor told a fat man to stop eating a list of cretin foods, but the fat guy couldn't read, so he eats whatever is available? Pretty hard to train a wild animal what it can and can't eat.

 

[elkeater2]

They (the wolves) weren't bound to terms inside the park either. They are wolves and didn't sign a contract. Their placement was under our terms. Their present existence is under our terms. The land boundaries mean nothing to them, of course. Totally protected predator populations of any kind will expand their range, as the population density in relation to the prey base increases. When a totally ill-conceived controlled introduction of a non-native alpha predator is made with no provision for true control after a certain number is reached, we get problems like this. Part of the folly is that control can continue while expansion progresses. Witness the back-and-forth between the state game dept's and the Fish & Wildlife career bleeding hearts that delayed control and allowed expansion to explode. We got what we deserved, but it makes me angry and sad. Elk were planted and herds begun and established where they were welcomed by sportsmen and wildlife observers alike. Wolves were planted in Yellowstone by a handful of vocal and organized ecology tamperers who had their own agenda, the majority of LOCAL public sentiment be damned. Now we are seeing the results, and struggling with them. Too bad they look so pretty in pictures! Speaking of which, do you know why the eco-freaks are wanting to curtail the elk feedground programs? It has nothing to do with the false ecological situation created by feeding, which is the claim. The real reason is that the pictorial evidence of elk slaughter by wolves is right by the roads and highways. "Oooh, look those wolves caught an elk! Ooh, she's still standing up in front, but her belly is ripped open, there's a fetus on the ground, and her intestines are stretched out across the white snow rapidly turning red! Let's take a picture!" No, our eco-control freaks don't want those pictures taken. It might make their pets look bad and change some of the East coast sentiment presently in their favor.

 

[BeeTee]

In short.... The wolves were never just going to stay put in Yellow Stone N.P., there is no real fences keeping them in.

They didn't leave Yellowstone on their own....

The pro-wolf environmentalists weren't content with just introducing a few into Yellowstone. Non-native Canadian wolves were transported to many parts of Idaho and Montana, most in the dark of night, and they never allowed prior public comment.

My father lived in Salmon, ID back in the 1990s when the environmentalists in the federal government dropped off a pack of wolves at Corn Creek, down river from North Fork Idaho. They did this in the middle of the night. My dad video recorded the angry town hall meeting that occurred the next day.

I guess you haven't read my comments about the 9 Mile Creek introduction outside Missoula Montana in the late 1990s, and what death and destruction it caused. That introduction was also in the dark of night.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Isn't it funny how it's considered a invasive species if a person does it but when the government does it then it isn't. It would be cool to see someone with deep pockets sue the government for just that......introduction of a invasive species.

 

[BeeTee]

May not need deep pockets...

To learn how the environmentalists are using billions of our tax dollars against us, have a look at the following story, entitled, "Environmental Lawsuits Rake in Billions for Lawyers":
http://www.nowpublic.com/environment/en ... ns-lawyers

Who knows, maybe hunters and others can access those billions as well.....

 

[longrangehunter]

I was in Missoula over the weekend and while having dinner a Rancher and his wife sat next to me. I asked him about the war on weeds issue and his response was that in Ravalli County the Knap weeds are winning by a wide margin! He did mention he's not a hunter anymore but that he likes to target practice instead.....

 

[BeeTee]

I was in Missoula over the weekend and while having dinner a Rancher and his wife sat next to me. I asked him about the war on weeds issue and his response was that in Ravalli County the Knap weeds are winning by a wide margin! He did mention he's not a hunter anymore but that he likes to target practice instead.....

Not sure where your rancher's property was located but the reality of the knapweed decline county-wide is quite different. BT

July 2010 Missoulian newspaper story: "It was a like a sea of purple when it bloomed in late July," Story remembers. "People used to call it Bitterroot alfalfa."

Today that's all changed.

On the northern half of the Bitterroot, the large fields covered in knapweed are gone from the valley floor thanks in good part to a variety of insects with a taste for the noxious weed that Story's research helped uncover.

Full story: http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-re ... 03286.html

 

[Wondermutt]

I went for a ride yesterday. Its an area I have frequented many seasons before. I go here because it is the spring range of the herd I hunt. This is also a great place to shed hunt. This is the first year I saw no sheds. I saw no elk, and only a few does. What I did see is a carcass. I also saw lots of scat, huge like Great Dane size. In the snow that is still here, I saw lots of large dog prints. What I also saw on the way back out was tracks that crossed my tire tracks. I covered 30 miles on the ridges and draws. No sign of the herds that were here last year.

So, they are here, the wolfs. An area that is 80 miles from where the "Know Locations" of the packs are. If anyone tells me that wolfs have no impact but are there to strike a balance in nature is so full of Sh*t. They need to come up to this area with notepads in hand and get rid of the junk science they stand behind.

I am glad Idaho give 5 tags a year. This is the first year I plan on hunting them as I would Elk or Whitetails.

 

[longrangehunter]

I bought my Sportsman's License a few months ago and was surprised to see the five Wolf tags included? I didn't know they were included this year, but I plain on putting those tags on as many Wolves I can put a bead on..... hopefully the bullets will find there mark!

I'll keep a promise and do my part in Wildlife management...... I have a new issue this week of something else I'd like to Kill. A Pocket Gopher eating my carrots! Made me realize how everything in life can be effected by something unwanted? It's not just a vacuum we all live in, everything has risk and will have a cause and effect. Even something a simple as a fenced in vegetable garden, can't keep out the field mice either from eating my Strawberries or whatever killed off 90% of my beans.

If life was so simple...... we'd all be better off!

 

[longrangehunter]

March 31st is our last day for harvesting a Wolf and as of this date I have not seen a single wolf track or heard one!
I had a Coyote that went missing for almost a month, and thought maybe a Wolf ate it? But Zuri and I saw it the other day so that's out of the question? We used my Foxpro a few hours later but nothing showed.
We did get a lot of snow this year that made it hard on the neighboring Elk and Deer, the rain didn't help matters much either icing it to the ground. I had some Hay feed out but they weren't too interested in eating it, but Boy they like eating my landscape plants and trees....... that's a problem. These are suppose to be plants deer wont eat.... no they wont eat them, just bit it off and leave it lying on the ground. They eat a false cypress to the trunk! They "Loved that one"!

 

[Vince]

A very informative, and often contentious, thread.

I've formed my opinions based on my agricultural background and the impact predators, wolves in particular, have on the current situation in the lower 48. As I was being raised coyotes, mountain lions, and bears were a shoot on sight animal. At that time the prevailing question would be, "What's a hunting license?" Anything that is a danger to livestock production, wolves, bears, mountain lions, coyotes, weeds, drought, etc, etc, is a force to be eliminated or controlled if possible.

There are many sides to the issue and I doubt we can all come to a consensus.

Vince

 

[maverick2]

This thread is an interesting read. Central theme always comes back to wolves, but manages to touch on weeds, diminishing habitat, ranchers, German Shepherds, displacement of the American Indian, and the cause-and-effect of mankind's meddling (among other things) along the way. The OP (admittedly and intentionally) writes from a "big picture" viewpoint (I believe to promote some outside the box thinking), very similar to that of our government on issues of conservation, endangered species, etc, with the focus of that "big picture" being large-scale and long-term. Unfortunately, the "big picture" approach often causes a fair amount of pain in localized areas in the near term, while the end-game result, whether good or bad, is usually not known or understood for years. The frustration and vehemence expressed in the "great wolf debate" is largely from those of us caught up in (and negatively affected by) the localized near term impacts of the "big picture". It's tough to stand idly by and watch your livelihood (cattle, sheep, etc) get impacted with promises of retribution being broken, or your passion (hunting) being gutted, all the while listening to someone that can justify it for the greater good. It doesn't sit well, as for many of us, it's already become personal. I can understand and appreciate the OP's point of view, but would ask him: "How would you respond if a wolf managed to take your favorite dog and the big picture feedback you got in return was that "the dog probably shouldn't have been where he was to begin with" and that "it's only one dog in the hundreds of thousands of dogs that die each year..." It doesn't sit well.

 

[maverick2]

March 31st is our last day for harvesting a Wolf and as of this date I have not seen a single wolf track or heard one!

The March 31 deadline is looming in my mind as well. My opportunities might be a little better, though, as we've got a black wolf frequenting our canyon that I can't seem to connect with. He's quite vocal, but not very visible.

 

[DrMike]

March 31st is our last day for harvesting a Wolf and as of this date I have not seen a single wolf track or heard one!

The March 31 deadline is looming in my mind as well. My opportunities might be a little better, though, as we've got a black wolf frequenting our canyon that I can't seem to connect with. He's quite vocal, but not very visible.

That is so typical. Have you tried calling? Predator calls have worked well for me in the past, especially in the spring.

 

[maverick2]

March 31st is our last day for harvesting a Wolf and as of this date I have not seen a single wolf track or heard one!

The March 31 deadline is looming in my mind as well. My opportunities might be a little better, though, as we've got a black wolf frequenting our canyon that I can't seem to connect with. He's quite vocal, but not very visible.

That is so typical. Have you tried calling? Predator calls have worked well for me in the past, especially in the spring.

Not yet on the calling, but will play around with it one or two evenings next week.

 

[truck driver]

Some where in this thread weed control was mentioned and here in the east we had no real weed problem till no till farming was introduced and then the weeds took over. Also with the use of herbicides we lost our game bird population not only due to loss on habitat but also because the herbicides caused sterilization of the eggs. Now you are hard pressed to find Quail and Pheasants in the fields. As my neighbors cleaned fence rows to create a more suburban look to their homes with open fields behind them I choose to let mine alone so I have honeysuckle and other natural native plants to provide habitat for various birds and animals. I had one neighbor dumping her yard trash on me because she said it was just overgrown weeds which it really wasn't but in her suburbanite eyes it was an eye sore an I had to correct her politely and told her to keep her trash to her self or take it to the county recycle yard.
Man is his own worst enemy and destroys more than he saves mostly because he can. JMHO

 

[IdahoCTD]

The wolf I shot I howled in just using my mouth. You might try that as well if the wolf is being vocal. They have responded well to howling on several occasions for me.

 

[longrangehunter]

This thread is an interesting read. Central theme always comes back to wolves, but manages to touch on weeds, diminishing habitat, ranchers, German Shepherds, displacement of the American Indian, and the cause-and-effect of mankind's meddling (among other things) along the way. The OP (admittedly and intentionally) writes from a "big picture" viewpoint (I believe to promote some outside the box thinking), very similar to that of our government on issues of conservation, endangered species, etc, with the focus of that "big picture" being large-scale and long-term. Unfortunately, the "big picture" approach often causes a fair amount of pain in localized areas in the near term, while the end-game result, whether good or bad, is usually not known or understood for years. The frustration and vehemence expressed in the "great wolf debate" is largely from those of us caught up in (and negatively affected by) the localized near term impacts of the "big picture". It's tough to stand idly by and watch your livelihood (cattle, sheep, etc) get impacted with promises of retribution being broken, or your passion (hunting) being gutted, all the while listening to someone that can justify it for the greater good. It doesn't sit well, as for many of us, it's already become personal. I can understand and appreciate the OP's point of view, but would ask him: "How would you respond if a wolf managed to take your favorite dog and the big picture feedback you got in return was that "the dog probably shouldn't have been where he was to begin with" and that "it's only one dog in the hundreds of thousands of dogs that die each year..." It doesn't sit well.

First off, never refer me to our government unless you mean Teddy Roosevelt, and I never made any reference to the greater good in anyway shape or form in my previous post about the greater good for/towards the Wolf. So don't put words in my mouth. It was plain as the day the sun would rise again that the Wolves would never just stay in Yellowstone NP. The Fish and Game Departments that allowed Wolves to be placed elsewhere didn't have Ranchers or Hunters "best interest'' in the equation now did they? After all who's greater good was it other then the Wolf in the first place? No one asked me, my opinion was never heard because it didn't matter what I had to say! Just like everything else that takes place in the World everyday that happens.

Let me start with an answer to your first question: That most if not all of the environmental issues that we will face in the future and in the past, can or will be traced back to man kinds own wrongdoing and stupidity! It really is that simple, "cause and effect".

And Yes if we all looked at everything with a open mind, hopefully for people to think outside of the box so we might not find ourselves having to solve a problem that we created in the first place..... we all don't live in a vacuum.

I can hardly wait, (no, I'd like to puke at the thought of just how stupid we are). That our thrust for oil and natural gas will be the demise of mankind and/or Earth for that matter with the wide spread use of Fracking! The fruits which we all bear do have an outcome, but being blind from the truth "only time will tell"?

Your second point I could bring up multiple scenarios about loss: I'll stick to just two. Any loss do to theft? Businesses have theft on any occasion their backs are turned and know one is watching either the back door or front....... even cyber attacks. A farmer can have losses due to either pests or rodents and/or environmental issues just as much to the rancher to predation. It doesn't just stop because it shouldn't happen in the first place!

I myself have lost rows of carrots, beets, turnips, cilantro, parsley, basil, on and on to Pocket Gophers. I caught quite a few and still lost the battle! Mice eating my strawberries, Turkey's eating my raspberries, deer eating my landscape plants...... those things cost money and a great deal of time to install, weed around, water, and maintain on a daily basis! In the end it was a great loss to me, only have my futile efforts succumb to Nature! That's about a F***ing personal as it gets, but shit happens so roll with the punches, life is not fair!

Which brings me to another point, your last one: Ya, I had two Goats that I loved as pets. A 3 1/2 year old Wether Saanen named Lars and Honoria, a kid doe Boar Goat I rescued. Both were not well taken care of and I nursed back to health. They followed me everywhere and required a lot of care just to keep alive. When you live surrounded by NFS lands, there's a lot of animals that can wreak havoc on what you own and what you want to protect!?! In the end though I knew in my heart I would have to give them up if they were ever to survive where I live. Which broke my heart, but I did rightfully so for their better good!

As far as my Dog goes, I watch over her like a Hawk! I'm not afraid of anything, any wolf will have the lower jaw ripped from his/her face like a twig with my bare hands or shot if I so choose to do so? But I also train her to kill on sight a predator, like a mother trains her cub to survive...... eat or be eaten! My last Labrador was a sight to be hold, loving to a fault, but would protect you with her life!

If you own something you love, protect it. If it doesn't mean that much to you, leave it to chance or fate? Me, I do both, but I have the love of the Good Lord on my side which trumps everything else!