Interesting developments with E-tip

[Guest]

I was helping a friend load some E-Tips the other night, using my bench and equipment. 180gr .308 bullets, 300Wby (Remington cases), H1000 powder. We loaded up the first three at the start charge, and I noticed a bit of 'crunching' when seating. We were only seating deep enough to fit in the magazine of his Mark V. Well, with the second charge in our workup, the bullets would not seat to magazine length. So, apparently h1000 is not the right choice for this combination. H4831sc is working fine so far, and we'll be trying some IMR7828ssc and AAMagPro in the next couple of weeks, as well. It should be interesting.

 

[honkeetonkin]

dubyman, I get the crunching sound when I load 49 grs of IMR 4895 in 358 win using 225 bts and accubonds but but dont worry about lenth since they are shot out of an encore.

 

[Guest]

I don't really worry about the crunching sound, generally, as I have several compressed loads that are great shooters. I was surprised that, following the Nosler #5 data for 180gr bullets, I couldn't get the charges to fit into the case and still seat the E-Tip to magazine length on a Weatherby rifle (not known for short magazines). I guess anything that's close to 100% is likely to be pushing the limit with the longer E-Tip, but I'm disappointed, really.

 

[Desert Fox]

The trick with loading compressed load is with the use of a drop tube. I used that same powder on my 300 Win Mag and I have the same problem with powder being crunched even at 2 grain below maximum. I wish they make them short cut like the IMR 7828 SC. I fashioned a small primer pick-up tube from my Dillon press and epoxied it on a small funnel that my wife use for her cooking and "voila", a perfect drop tube. To these day, my wife never found out what happen to her tiny funnel. :lol:

 

[FOTIS]

What was the load?

 

[Guest]

The load series was as per the book:

85gr to start
87gr mid
89gr max

The 85gr stuff seated to magazine length, but not without some compression of the powder charge. The 87gr stuff would not seat and maintain magazine length. In fact, it would not seat to mag length except while in the die. As soon as I began to lower the press handle, I could feel the bullet pushing out of the case slightly, and it never 'seated' properly to mag length. We didn't try the 89gr load, as we decided to D/C the entire series because of the seating problems.

We got some H4831sc loaded perfectly, and anticipate finding out about the other powders in the very near future. I will post more info as I have it. I can say that the E-Tip is significantly longer than 180gr Hornady SST's, that's for sure.

 

[RMiller]

I dont mind a little compression but if it requires a drop tube then in my opinion it is not an appropriate powder for that case bullet combo and I will choose a different powder.

 

[FOTIS]

89 gr is infact 114% loading density at standard COAL.

Cartridge : .300 Weath. Mag.
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler E-Tip preliminary
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.560 inch or 90.42 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 91 71.20 2626 2756 36234 10302 92.8 1.505
-18.0 94 72.98 2696 2905 38884 10614 94.1 1.462
-16.0 96 74.76 2767 3059 41754 10907 95.3 1.420
-14.0 98 76.54 2838 3218 44869 11178 96.4 1.378
-12.0 100 78.32 2909 3382 48260 11426 97.4 1.337
-10.0 103 80.10 2980 3550 51946 11647 98.2 1.297
-08.0 105 81.88 3052 3723 55961 11839 98.9 1.253 ! Near Maximum !
-06.0 107 83.66 3124 3900 60357 12001 99.4 1.210 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 109 85.44 3195 4080 65160 12129 99.7 1.169 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 112 87.22 3266 4265 70444 12222 100.0 1.128 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 114 89.00 3338 4452 76250 12279 100.0 1.090 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 116 90.78 3408 4643 82658 12321 100.0 1.052 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 119 92.56 3479 4837 89753 12354 100.0 1.016 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 121 94.34 3549 5035 97635 12380 100.0 0.980 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 123 96.12 3620 5237 106423 12397 100.0 0.946 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 125 97.90 3690 5443 116271 12405 100.0 0.913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 114 89.00 3470 4812 93248 11722 100.0 1.009 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 114 89.00 3136 3931 61641 12513 97.0 1.195 ! Near Maximum !

 

[Guest]

Wow! I was just following Nosler's advice to load with existing 180gr data and start at the bottom working up carefully. (Of course, I guess it can't be more careful than stopping during loading and disassembling a course of rounds because I'm not comfortable with the case volume, can it?)

Thanks for the help through QL, POP. You're a terrific resource. As soon as we have some range data, I'll try to analyze it and post it.

 

[FOTIS]

Cool!

 

[Guest]

I'm going to try to convince my friend to let me load some up with H1000 using your simulation, POP. He was awful nervous when I said we needed to disassemble those rounds - he's not a handloader, and we're 'teaching' him right now, and I guess it freaked him out a bit to hear the crunching and then have to take them apart. At one point, he took several steps back (as I used my bullet pulling die in the press to remove bullets and then dump the powder back in the container), so I think he has a healthy respect for how serious handloading is. I bet I can get him to go for it, though. Anyway, I'm anxious to see what the results are versus what QL predicts, in terms of velocity and pressure. If you don't mind, run a sim of the same bullet/rifle combo, but use H4831sc and IMR7828ssc, if you can. I'd hate to be waaaaay over (like that 89gr load would have been!) on these. No rush, but thanks!

 

[kraky]

I load alot of weatherby and after reading this thought...this would not happen with wby brass....at least I don't think it would. Then I read you were using rem brass. If it was virgin rem brass that stuff is REALLY LOW ON CAPACITY and even trying to approach max loads of ANY DATA is a really not good idea. (I usually notice a difference in where the powder sits after firing the case one time) AND it gets even worse when you use a long bullet like a E-tip. Do not follow pops ql charts because unless he adjusted for less case capacity they will not be correct. (actually the chart may be "self correcting" as quick load has no way of factoring in weatherby freebore which makes a big difference. In your case the smaller case is a negative....but the freebore makes up for it>)
I would strongly urge you to start at about 84 grains H1000 in the rem brass and work up till you hit about 3220-3250 in that weatherby. I thbink you will hit this somewhere in the 86.5-88 grain range.

 

[kraky]

PS--I have a "magic" load for a very fussy 300 wby ultralight. I am using retumbo which is just slightly slower than h1000. I worked up to 88.2 grains under a 180tsx (which should be a lower pressure bullet than the e-tip). IN hornady match grade brass (which has about the same case capacity as the rem) it's doing 3230-3250. With wby brass it's doing about 3200-3210. Retumbo took what I think is a flawed barrel which was doing 4-5" groups at 200 yds to a 2-3" grouper at 300 yds. BTW--when you compress retumbo its the darndest sound I ever heard. It doesn't crunch....it seems to squeak. I know cause I've run up to 83 grains of this under a 200 ab in a 300 win mag. Not sure why but the bullets seems to stay put at magazine length which is 3.340...but I give it a slight Lee crimp just in case it changes it's mind. I do have some of the 180 e tips on hand and will persue retumbo in that 300 wby someday.

 

[FOTIS]

Retumbo works for the 300 Bee.