Is my 30-06 finicky? Or is it the powder?

[joelkdouglas]

To go along with the 25-06 thread, I was also out shooting the 30-06 today. My normal load that I've put quite a bit of work into is 58.8 gr Ramshot Hunter, CCI Mag primer, various brass, 180 PT or 180 AB. She has been all over the place lately with the Hunter, and I suspect the powder is really sensitive to temp changes.

I chrono'd the load in later summer using a Magnetospeed (probably 80 F or 85 F), and got 2760 fps. I chrono'd the load in 10 F weather, and got 2590 fps, and I suspected the chrono. Today was 35 F, wind chill 22 F, and the load chrono'd right at 2700 fps. Now I'm not suspecting the chrono as much, and I'm thinking Hunter (or at least my batch) is pretty temp sensitive. To range from 2600 to 2760 in a 75 degree swing is quite a bit.

As I would expect, the load groups are kind of all over the place also. I was getting some 0.5 inch, 4-shot groups in the summer, but not lately.

I also loaded up 4 rounds of H4350 (56.5 grains) with 180 ABs, and she chrono'd 2760 fps today. I may have to switch to H4350 for the elk hunt this fall.

Any other ideas? Do you think the powder temp sensitivity is the problem, or something else? I also have IMR4350, and I'll probably throw some 180 ABs together tonight with H4350 and IMR4350.

Just to be sure it wasn't the rifle, I shot a 5-shot group of my standard "practice" load of 59.1 grains IMR4350 with 155 Custom Competitions. As normal, all the CCs hit inside a 1-inch square.

Could it be this barrel just doesn't like 180s? I guess I could shoot a bull elk with a 150 AB or 150 PT out of a 30-06? Any of you shoot a bull elk with a 150 AB?

 

[gerry]

How's the run out on your 180 gr loads?

 

[Rol_P]

I share your frustration with 180 gr 30-06 loads.. After briefly trying Hunter powder I got my hands on Reloder 22 and worked up a load using Nosler Brass, WLR primer, 61.0 gr of Reloder 22 (62.0 is max. per Nosler Guide #7) and 180 Accubonds. They are set to a comparator oal of 3.745" while my jam length last time I checked was 3.850" so you can see that is a lot of jump. My barrel is 24" and I chronographed the loads at 2,750fps. last fall and they group just over 2" at 200yds, (reconfirmed Monday when the temp. reached 45 degrees). I suggest that you look at varying the seating depth to see if that shows any improvement.

One thing that I want to do is revisit the possibility of using the IMR 4350 that I set aside when I found the good load using Reloder 22. I will vary the seating depth and see what the groups look like.

 

[joelkdouglas]

How's the run out on your 180 gr loads?

Less than 0.002. I check each with a Sinclair gauge.

 

[kraky]

Wow...that's a huge swing. Not surprising w/many powders to see 1fps per degree change.
That big of a velocity drop is so big the ONLY possible way it could be accurate is if you caught a 2nd accuracy node!

 

[Sas874runner]

Have you tried mag primers

 

[joelkdouglas]

Have you tried mag primers

Yep, I'm using CCI Mag primers for the ball powder. I haven't tried CCI LR primers.

But a primer change won't affect 150 fps of lost velocity. Just the 60 fps of lost velocity from 85 F to 35 F is considerable.

 

[gerry]

That is a bit of a head scratcher, 150 fps is a lot to lose.

 

[Sas874runner]

Correct. It was more so if you were using standard primers. Sometimes jumping to a mag primer cab fix that.

 

[joelkdouglas]

As we speak (write, actually), I just finished sizing. Now I'm going to load:

Nosler brass
57.5 gr H4350
180 AB
0.02 off lands, 0.06 off lands, 0.10 off lands
CCI LR primer
4 shot groups

I will also load some 0.06 rounds for chrono purposes, probably the other 8.

I shot the one group of 56.5 grains H4350 today, with 180 AB 0.06 off the lands. Chrono'd 2760 fps. The first shot ended up being a flyer, with the other 3 grouped into 0.85 inches. The flyer could have been me, could have been a gust of wind, could have been because it was the first shot after switching powders…or could have been an honest 2.5 inch group.

Regardless, I remember hearing 57.5 to 58 grains of H4350 with 180 ABs has made more than one 30-06 sing.

 

[joelkdouglas]

And loading up some

Norma brass
57.0 gr IMR4350
180 AB
0.06 off lands
CCI LR primer
4 shot groups (one to chrono, one for group)

 

[6mm Remington]

Joel that sure does sound to me like a lot of variation in the load because of the temperature swing. I think you might have it nailed as to being the problem.

I sure have had great luck with IMR4350 and I got a load that shot great and I've just never messed with it, so I cannot speak for other powders. I do think that either IMR4350 or H4350 should serve you very well. I used CCI 200 primers in the past but switched to Federal 210's. They both seem to work equally well.

Let us know how it works for you.
David

 

[Oldtrader3]

Joel, I have great luck with 165 Partitions and 57.5 grains of IMR 4350. Been shooting that load for 45 years now and it is one of the most accurate rifles that I own.

 

[JD338]

IMR4350 was always my go to powder in the 30-06.

JD338

 

[joelkdouglas]

Thanks for all the comments.

The last elk I killed (at -5 F) was with a combo of IMR 4350 and an 180 AB. Then I read too much about IMR 4350's temp sensitivity, how there were better powders. Lucky for me, one of you guys (don't remember now) early on convinced me to purchase a keg of IMR 4350 for loading my 30-06. Thanks to whomever that was! After shooting the 5-shot group of IMR 4350 and 155 Custom Competitions yesterday into an inch in the coldish/wind, I think IMR 4350 seems just fine.

Thanks also for the comment about the 165s. I have used that load in the past also, but I am out of 165s right now. I could buy more (Cabela's has 165 PTs in stock), but that costs a bunch of money! I'll keep looking at SPS for 165 PTs and ABs.

Last night loading up the 57 grains IMR 4350 with the 180 ABs I couldn't get the bullets to seat as deeply as I wanted--the load was too compressed. I seated several bullets multiple times, and got the seating depth variance down to about 0.002. This morning before I head back to the range I'm going to load up some 56 grains IMR 4350, same 180 ABs, and I'll use a drop tube for the powder. Then I can get more consistent seating depth.

Thanks again gents. I hope to have some more results for you this evening!

 

[Larry in SD]

I have had certain ball powders do really weird things in the .223. Worked up a load in 80 degree temps with W-748. When I was out shooting Prairie Dogs a couple weeks later I had to keep my ammo in a cooler otherwise I was blowing primers.

Did a little test when I returned home. I put 10 rounds in a zip lock bag in the freezer for a couple days. The morning I was going to do the test I laid 10 rounds on a cookie sheet on the front step in the sun. When I chronographed and shot those rounds for group there was a huge difference, 150 FPS difference and 2" difference in group sizes.

I have used nothing but Hodgdon Extreme Powders ever since.

Larry

 

[Polaris]

I think the temp sensitivity of 4350 is a bit overblown. Here in MN, I need my match loads to perform from -10 to 100 F. My hunting loads from -10 to 70. I use IMR 4350 and 4064 for both. In my 6.5 Swede, my match load with IMR 4350 shows negligible change in POI, Vel and most importantly group size across those temperature extremes. The only ball powder I've worked a lot with is BL-C2 and I found much more temp sensitivity with that one.

If you're running into compressed powder issues with 4350, you might try IMR 4064 or Viht N150. Both will work well with 'o6 180 gr loads and take less volume for the same velocity levels.

 

[Elkman]

Like some other "seasoned" hunters here I have been using H-4350 for slightly over 40 years. Lowest temps somewhere between 10 or 15 below zero (balmy by Canadian standards), up in the 80's on the top end. Has always worked fine for me.

 

[Hegland]

Looking forward to your side-by-side between IMR and Hodgdon, Joel. H4350 seems to me to be one of the least temp-sensitive powders I use. Granted, I've been doing this for years and not decades like many members here, and I haven't gone through the tonnage of other powders that other members have. However, I tend to gravitate towards H4350 (usually 8 lbs at a time) simply because it works very well, and works across a broad range of applications that I load for.

Good luck with your range time today.

 

[joelkdouglas]

Well, the range results are in.

First, my "control" group, a 5-shot group of 155 Custom Comps, CCI LR primers, and 59.1 gr IMR4350 went into 0.88 inches. 4 in the same hole, and 1 I threw 0.8 inches away. I normally shoot a 5-shot group of this load as my first group of the day, to test the wind conditions, get settled in, etc. It normally shoots very well.

Then results weren't as good, but not awful either. The best group with IMR4350 went 1.25 inches (4 shots). The last group of the day was the best 180 group--57.5 gr H4350, CCI LR primers, Nosler brass, 180 AB at 2.627 inches cartridge base to ogive (CBTO). It went right at an inch, with a 4-shot group. Three are in a half inch, and the fourth is almost an inch away from those three. Not bad as normally I'm about a 0.75 inch shooter.

The tricky part of this load is the chrono--2827 fps, with an ES of 21 and SD of 8. That's pretty hot--QL thinks about 68K PSI. No ejector marks, no sticky bolt lift, though. If I had a keg of H4350 to play with I would drop the charge a grain and play with changing primers to BR primers. As it is now, I think I'll just try some BR primers to see if the groups tighten up, and shoot the group again to try and prove the load. And adjust scope, and keep the rest of my H4350 until I can find more.

Thoughts? Do you think the load is too hot?