Is the shooter the problem?

[Scott Spencer]

Hi fellas -

Went to the range this A.M. and tried to see what my loads are doing. I don't know if it is simply me or the loads. Can anyone tell what they think the gun is telling me or what I might be getting wrong?

Weapon: Win Model 70 FW, 30-06, 22" barrel, Nikon 3-9x50mm, high mounts
Conditions: 76-78 deg, wind 2-5 at 100 yds (L to R) and then 10-15 mph at 200 yds (L to R)
Load: Rem brass, NP 180 gr, Fed 210 primer, 56 gr IMR4350

I am trying to get 2.75-3" high at 100 yds and get a consistent group. I was aiming at the red dot as the green dot is 3" high at 100 yd. Each square is 1"

First Group, 100 yds

Second group, 100 yds after adj down 3 clicks

Third Group, 200 yds just to see what it was doing

 

[Richracer1]

First, are you using a solid rest? If you aren't, buy or fabricate a rest that takes out as much of the movement as possible. Then try again. Did this load produce good groups before or are you developing?

 

[Scott Spencer]

Shooting off a solid concrete shooting bench with Caldwell support under the barrel and sand bag under the butt. It was a solid rest.

I've been developing this load and the other groups have been about the same. The 56 gr has been the best so far.

 

[JD338]

Scott,

You said you have a rest under the barrel? Make sure the barrel is not in contact with the rest, this could be the problem.

Also make sure all bedding screws are tight. Same with scope mounts and rings. Is the barrel free floating or is there a pressure point at the for end of the stock?
Do you have a good cheek weld to the stock? This can sometimes be a problem with the 50mm scopes.

You might also try a different powder. RL22 is a solid performer in the 30-06.

JD338

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

A couple of thoughts.
Rifle are very sensitive to having ANYTHING tough the barrel. Just laying your fingers on the barrel of a benchrest rifle can open up the groups an extra 1/8 inch. A sandbag under the barrel could mean, well, what you are seeing.

If that is not the case, 4350 can be a little finicky about primers. Move to something colder, I'd recommend CCI 200. It's on of the best primers for stick powders.

 

[Scott Spencer]

Hi JD,

The forearm was on the front rest about mid pt. No barrel contact at all. The barrel is free floating all the way back and I had a good cheek weld to the stock and was very comfortable. The trigger has been worked on and is about 2.75 lbs with just a tiny hair of creep.

I double checked all screws - scope, rings, and bedding before shooting.

I'm going to shoot some Fed Prem 180 NP bullets the next trip just to see what the gun does with the premium factory ammo. I shot some of the cheap Winchester loads ($15 a box) when I first got it last summer and it sure didn't like the cheap stuff.

I'll give the RL22 a go. Do you have a suggested starting point with the 180 NP? I'm trying to develop my elk load for my hunt in Colorado this Oct.

 

[wingnut]

SS-

I don't see where there is a problem. Your load is shooting 1.5 MOA or less. This has been common for me with NP's. Shoot a few groups with 5-10 rounds to make sure. Remember, an elk is minute of pie plate.

Some thoughts:

Your 56 grains of IMR 4350 is 1g high according to Nosler #6. No big deal but might want to watch it in hot WX. Got a chrono?

Might want to try 180g AB's for better groups.

According to Nosler #6, RL22 is a very compressed load for 30-06 with a 180g bullet.

I would suggest you try non-temp sensitive H4350. Its a little slower than IMR 4350, a little faster than IMR 4831 and a little faster than RL22. Also, it does not have the compression issues of RL22.

 

[rick smith]

Check the scope for parallex. Not all rifles like partitions. I have had better luck with the 165gr part. in several different 30/06s.Rick.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't reading close enough. Your shooting Partitions.
Switch to Accubonds.
I would be very suprised if this did not solve the problem.

 

[Scott Spencer]

A very sincere "thank you" to all of you for taking the time to offer comments and suggestions!

I've got some good ideas to work with now and I'll be buying some powder and 180 gr AB bullets tomorrow. My local gun supply only has the RL19 in stock right now so I'll see what I can get from it and the AB's.

 

[JD338]

Scott,

30-06
180 gr PT
RL22, Start at 57.0 grs MAX 61.0 grs.
Remember to start low and work up.

You might also want to play with the COL, just make sure they fit into the magazine.

If you are not happy with the results, consider the 180 gr AB. Great bullet
for deer and elk.

Let us know how your load development goes.

JD338

 

[old #7]

RL-19 and 165 gr AB's have performed very well in my 06. Imr 4350 is the classic powder for the 06 but I got very consistant velocities with a compressed load of RL-19 and a fed 215.
Start low and work up.

I have a 7mm that was a chore to get to shoot good. It took aproximately 200 rds of load development before I found a combo that did well.

Have you found your max overall length. Overall length has been one of the biggest factors for tight groups for me lately. Try seating a bullet .02 off the lands to start and then vary the lenght by .005 to and away from the lands.

Another thing that comes to mind is copper fouling. I have good results with Sweets 7.62.
Also my 06 preferes 3 fouling shots before it shoots sub moa.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Scott!....................Do all of the above; change powders, experiment with seating depths, try different primers and bullets and so on. But here is a little trick you really should try!......A Limbsaver barrel de-resonator!! Yep! That little rubber goody that looks like a smaller CV axle boot that you just slip onto your barrel (with gun oil), that REALLY cuts down your barrel`s vibs! Costs about $19! Check out the Limbsaver web site!...........Start from about an inch to an inch and a half away from the stock end and move toward the muzzle as needed. It really works!! That will definately help to cut down your group sizes!!...............If you watch the hunting outdoor channels, you`ll see some hunters using it! Eastman is always using one!

 

[cloverleaf]

Scott- You are in good hands here. some very knowlegable shooters hang out right here. Only thing I will add is to try there suggestions with a Plan in mind. first check all your screws mounts etc, (sorry you said you did that) check for parralax (Iwas getting groups like you last time out. In my rifle that seems to b e possibility-but I havent got any more of my pet loads available so have to wait 'til I can reload some) hence my plan is not in motion. (There is one grain of powder fifference between my best load and current load) A new scope is on order. The barrel has been cleaned meticuously...etc. See my post regarding hating the variables in rifles and reloading pages. I am impatient so I have to work hard at planning what I wil do to sort them out. Oh one last thing, My barrel is floated to but it seems to walk a little after the third shot no matter what I do.

Then there are all the questions about form. Until I can afford a GOOD scope I have gone back to my .22 of known accuracy shooting at 25yds (that keeps the groups smaLL and helps my confidence and my flinch.

Last thing- take heart your groups are not "bad" and loks like nothing wildly erratic is going on. All the holes in the target are round...when they get rectangular shaped (that has happened to me)_ THEN you worry... :? Let us know how it plays out. CL

 

[Scott Spencer]

Thank you for the words of encouragement and suggestions, Cloverleaf!

Thankfully, I've got a few months before my elk hunt in October. I will keep everyone apprised of my results and post some target pics as I keep developing a load.

Scott

 

[flashhole]

Before you make any changes try this. When the gun is on the rest snug it up to your shoulder nice and tight AND grab the forearm of the gun and hold it tightly with slight downward pressure onto the rest. It looks to me like you are relying on the gun sitting on the rest to be a secure setup. The barrel can/will jump when the gun is fired and cause exactly what you are seeing in your targets.

 

[old #7]

Another thing you can do at the bench to see if you have a problem with your form is....
Set up like you are going to take a shot but with an empty chamber. Look through your scope or sights and go through all of the motions you normaly would. When you pull the trigger and the gun dry fires your sight picture should not change. If it does change try positioning your finger farther into and out of the trigger guard. Sometimes the things that happen as the trigger is pulled can greatly affect the shot.

 

[Scott Spencer]

Thanks fellas. I checked my scope for parallax and it seems to be fine at 100 yds on 9 power.

O#7, I tried the dry-fire test and I may need to adjust my finger. I may be pulling it off the aim point just a hair but I suppose ANY movement will affect my shot. My trigger is set to about 2 3/4 lbs and that is about as low as I could get it with a gunsmith.

I think Flashhole makes an excellent point and he is correct. I have just been letting my forearm lay on the rest (a Caldwell Rock Jr) and not using my left hand to hold/steady the forearm. I plan to try that the next time at the range.

I had my dad shoot it this a.m. (sorry no photos) after loading with the CCI 200 primers and RL 19. I don't know the weight of the charge he used. The best group he could get was about 2". My dad has been shooting for 60+ years and reloading for about 40 years.

I may be worrying too much as I think that if I can get 1" to 1.5" groups then that is good enough for hunting. I suppose we all strive for the .5" MOA groups but mine won't ever be a tack driver. I can't afford a custom rifle and I just need to accept that an off-the-shelf rifle may not always be perfect.

I'll keep trying though.

 

[old #7]

Don't give up.
I read a post a while back about developing loads using the "ladder method". basicly you load up rounds starting from the lowest and work in .3 grain increments to the max. Set yout target @ 300yds (I tried it @ 200) and start shooting. Allow the barrel to cool between shots. keep track of your shots by numbering them on the target or drawing them on a target at the bench. After you are done shooting you should notice a group or cluster of shots. Compare the cluster to the powder charge. You should find a cluster of powder charges that grouped tighter than the rest. That cluster will make a good starting point for further development like col adjustments. i like this method vs the load this and try it approach. It enables you to find out if the powder bullet combo is worth playing with in aproximately 20 rounds. I hope this makes sense. I will see if I can find the earlier post and link you to it.
You can always try different bullet manufactures. I tried 9 different bullets in my 7mm along with different powders before I found a load that I was satisfied with.
Also don't overlook bedding your rifle.
here is the linkhttp://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7796&highlight=ladder+method
GSSP describes it well.

 

[flashhole]

old #7 makes a good point with the ladder test. I've used it several times on load development for several different guns and it works. You do need the distance to sort out the data and my findings have been the best performance is almost always near the top end of the load range. Some gun/load combinations will have more than one sweet spot so you can have an accurate reduced load if desired. Once the powder range is discovered you start dinking with seating depth and fine tune it. All but one of my center fire rifles is 100% factory and I get under MOA performance with all of them.

In my case I think the biggest improvements I can make on some of my rifles (and shooting results...notice I didn't say ability) is a better trigger. My Guide Gun has the worst trigger of the lot (Marlin should be ashamed putting this crappy a trigger on the market) and would benefit greatly from an aftermarket replacement. I have others, my Sauer 202 and Kimber Longmaster Classic that have truly outstanding factory triggers. Even my Ruger #1V has a very good factory trigger and I don't think I could improve my shooting results with a replacement on any of those 3. My Remington 700 needs help, it has a lot of slop that definately has a negative impact on shooting accuracy. I had a CZ 550 with a single set trigger that was excellent....CZ should get some kind of award for their trigger.