like it or not

[enfield fan]

Like it or not we all better get used to the idea of copper bullets for hunting.For one all goverments will make it law, two why whould you not to insure the well being of the young ones that we feed with the meet we shoot, its something i wish i have done a long time ago how about you. :idea:

 

[SJB358]

I think it is government telling us it is bad, so there for, everyone thinks it is. How many millions of deer were shot with lead round balls, lead 30-30 bullets and a bunch of other lead. I have never seen a big stink over lead poisoning till California said it was bad for birds eating gut piles. I guess waterfowlers are a little different, cause they are shooting hundreds of shells over water and those animals were ingesting the pellets supposedly. It isn't like were covering the landscape with lead. Pretty soon, after copper is in place, someone will find that ingesting copper causes something, and we will have another shift... Scott

 

[enfield fan]

My view of goverments acknowledgement of any changes in inviromental needs are always slow to change and always to late to stop the damage already done.This is mostly because we the people are slow or unwilling to lead change ourselves. What ever the cost to my generation is worth it so my childerns childern will enjoy what i got to grow up with in the out doors.

 

[1Shot]

Excuse me for just a moment but I have a question. WHERE DOES LEAD COME FROM? The answer to this question is. OUT OF THE GROUND. It is not man made. Now pardon me for being really blunt but in the immortal words a Jose Wells. "Don't pi** down my back and tell me it is raining." The amount of lead that is in a rifle or pistol bullet that is shot while hunting is a drop in the sea compared to what is already in the ground naturally. This "stop the use of lead bullets because it is poising people etc." is just another knee jerk reaction by the anti-hunting, liberal "we need change" air heads that want to control everything you do. These same people are the ones that have much invested in companies that do much more pollution and destroy the land with their quest for more money than any amount of lead being shot by hunters.

 

[Scott Spencer]

My guess is that there is more lead in berms at rifle and pistol ranges than ever will be in the wild from hunters taking game animals. I don't ever see birds/animals eating lead out of the berms at my gun club.

While I have nothing against lead-free bullets, to ban lead component bullets is just assinine 100 times over.

 

[enfield fan]

Yes lead comes from the ground, so does oil, does not mean you should shatter it through your meat then hope it is not in there when u eat it. I my self cut my own meat and i still encounter fragments when dinning.So i am pretty certain a meat processor will definately miss some. I my self am not worried about lead on the ground just in the game we eat, and what happen to a wounded animal with lead in it.If a person wishes to use lead bullets that should be his choice,but he has to live with them. :?:

 

[longwinters]

Guess I'm goin to have to order some more lead bullets......ain't never been politically correct......

Long

 

[Charlie-NY]

MANY tests have been done on people who have been eating lead bullet killed animals for decades and there is yet to be a finding of lead ingested disease or contamination in these people.

The California issue revolves around environmental extremists who believe that California Condors are eating gut piles that "may" contain lead frags that "may" cause lead poisoning in a few birds whose numbers are declining. Even if this is true, the lead bullet ban is an extreme reaction to this theory that will probably do nothing to save the Condors and should have no effect on other areas. Unless, of course, someone decides that coyotes deserve the same protection from "potentially lead contaminated" gut piles which may be consumed.

Frankly, I am glad that we have TSX, E-Tip, GMX, and similar non-lead alternative bullets to stop the antis from using lead bullets as a guise to stop hunting on an environmental basis.

 

[rick smith]

Before you get too worried about the extremely small amount of lead in animals we kill, you really need to find out how much lead one has to ingest to be a problem. I have been eating game for more than sixty years and it all has been killed with lead shot or bullets containing lead. Lead fumes are more dangerous and I casted lead sinkers for years with no harm. Lead based paints were surely dangerous to infants who ingested enough of it. But that also has to do with the availability of the product. Sodium in its natural state is a very soft metal that has to be stored under an oil. It will explode if thrown in water. Wouldn't make it to your stomach if ingested. Chlorine in it's natural state is a highly poisonous gas, kill you quick if ingested. Mix those two together properly and we use it everyday, NaCl, sodium chloride, table salt. Don't know if any condors were ever killed by ingesting lead from gut piles, never read any studies proving that. More lives would be saved by removing all tobacco/alcohol from human consumption. We know for sure what they do to humans. Good peer reviewed science is what is needed not some self proclaimed expert giving an opinion.Rick.

 

[DrMike]

Metallic lead is inert when ingested. It is lead in solution that is detrimental.

 

[Elkman]

Two thoughts. I have beeen eating game killed by lead since the late 40's. No difficulties with either me or my offspring. I think one would have to injest far more than what the average hunter eats in a life time to have any kind of reaction. Have a looksee at how much arsnic is in your mu :grin: niciple water system some time. I belive in less government not more. :grin:

 

[onesonek]

It's far more dangerous to get in your vehicle and go somewhere, than it is to eat meat that has been shot with lead. Funny though, I dont see many of the lead antis walking everywhere they go.
Dave

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Enfield fan, are you suggesting we are all too stupid to cut out the bloodshot meat and throw it in the garbage?

 

[enfield fan]

Now if i thought any of you are stupid i would not bother to discuss or even debate in conversation with a group that i acknoledge as people that share in my interests and hobbies.Now does that make us all agree,no but it gives us comfort that we can talk and even debate on our every day thoughts and worries of the land in which we share and enjoy.Many people on this continent are diagnosed with heavy metal poison including my oldest daughter which is fighting a harsh form of arthritisin which she had to take a large concoctions of drugs to deal with it.I myself ask if it was anything to do with our wild game eating,this i deal with every day.So you all go and worry that the anties have a smoking gun, because i will kill as many game as i always have,hopfully better,safer than before. :roll: :wink: p.s. do not mind that i spell and write like a fifth grader. :lol:

 

[onesonek]

Now if i thought any of you are stupid i would not bother to discuss or even debate in conversation with a group that i acknoledge as people that share in my interests and hobbies.Now does that make us all agree,no but it gives us comfort that we can talk and even debate on our every day thoughts and worries of the land in which we share and enjoy.Many people on this continent are diagnosed with heavy metal poison including my oldest daughter which is fighting a harsh form of arthritisin which she had to take a large concoctions of drugs to deal with it.I myself ask if it was anything to do with our wild game eating,this i deal with every day.So you all go and worry that the anties have a smoking gun, because i will kill as many game as i always have,hopfully better,safer than before. :roll: :wink: p.s. do not mind that i spell and write like a fifth grader. :lol:

I understand your thoughts enfield, and I hope for the best with your daughter. Some peoples body are more susceptible to certain things than others. I wouldn't hold yourself accountable for her condition due to hunting with lead. Heavy metal situation that you speak of could have drinking water scource as well. Or maybe even what has been cooked on over the years. High concentration of aluminum in the body isn't good either. But you ever notice what cooking tomatoes in a new aluminum pot does,,,,, I use cast iron myself.
I can respect your choice on not to use lead. But I don't want any gov't or group telling me I can't based on speculation or therory.
And I specially dislike when those antis, really preach freedom of choice when it's their wants, but to hell with my choice when they disagree.

Dave

 

[DaveA37]

Not sure how I have lived to be 73 years old having eaten soooooooo many ducks, birds and game animals. My family (Grandpa, Dad and myself and also my kids) all hunters have been bringing home game shot with lead for years. "If it aint broke, don't fix it". So far, I don't see that it is broke so I'm gonna stick with what I have for now.

I live adjacent to a huge federal wildlife refuge. There has been significant hunting on that refuge and in the surrounding rivers and marshes for over 100 years. Until recently the refuge did NOT have a ban on lead shot in areas not inhabitated by waterfoul. Waterfoul hunting with lead shot went out long ago. While recently visiting the refuge on a wildlife observation drive, I saw a new (small) sign that said "The use of ANY ammunition containing lead is absolutely prohibited>' The sign was at the enterance to the unfenced wildlife refuge. Guess they are spreading their wings to eliminate lead shot.

I have several boxes of 12 ga lead shot shells if someone is looking for some. :grin:

 

[Richracer1]

I have never seen a big stink over lead poisoning till California said it was bad for birds eating gut piles.

Also, the tree-huggers stating the Condors were getting lead poisoning from lead filled gut piles have yet to prove w/o a doubt that's the source of lead. I've seen x-rays of Condors that were found ill. That x-ray showed all kinds of crap that the bird ate; bottle caps, rifle brass, and lots of other junk. The lead ban in CA is due to political motivations and threats of a lawsuit but not on legitimate scientific findings. What makes it worse are those un-informed people have jumped on the "lead bullets are bad" bandwagon and are also probably convinced the sky is falling.

If you wish to use unleaded bullets and they shoot well in your rifle, good for you, they are good bullets, especially the Nosler ETs. I keep using ABs, PTs, and BTs in my rifles. I do have some ETs loads developed for a few of my rifles, due to when I was living in the Condor area of CA.

 

[Guest]

Alright, I hate to wade into this, but I cannot resist.

First off, Enfield Fan, I'm sorry your daughter has metal poisoning. I'd be willing to be my scientifically trained, biotech-employed behind, though, that it's a different source than your game eating. Unless you've been pumping her full of the worst parts of the wound channel by the hundred pound meal daily for her entire life.

Second, there is not one bit of credible science that lead bullets cause any traceable heavy metal poisoning to humans - either adult or child - in any publication anywhere. In fact, just about the only evidence out there is a highly suspicious "study" performed by a physician in Minnesota or North Dakota, showing high levels of lead in processed game meat. This was a retrospective study, uncontrolled, without randomization, and with a small sample size that was statistically insignificant. And, turns out the doc who put it together has an agenda to stamp out lead. Pre-conceived notions and fixing the evidence to demonstrate your point, despite any recorded negative outcomes that would HAVE TO be associated with your findings, does not make science. It makes propaganda.

There is nothing wrong with shooting all-copper bullets, even when your motivation is to be sure your family is safe. Just don't pretend that others should follow suit when there are no real facts to back up the argument. And don't be surprised when you discover that you're spending money, time, and effort unnecessarily.

Please note that the level of lead deemed safe is currently as follows:

The current reference range for acceptable blood lead concentrations in healthy persons without excessive exposure to environmental sources of lead is less than 10 µg/dL for children and less than 25 µg/dL for adults.

In the study in 2008 done by the CDC regarding lead levels for people eating wild game showed a blood lead concentration range of zero to 9.82 µg/dL, and that included heavy consumers of wild game harvested with lead shot/bullets. Further, none of the subjects were reported to have any symptoms of lead poisoning. It's just not credible science to say people are in danger of lead poisoning from eating wild game shot with lead bullets. Let's also remember that this "study" of 738 North Dakotans included people with significant other risk factors, and yet the range remained 60% below the threshold for toxicity.