Loading for the 280 Ackley...

[Ridgerunner665]

And as I've said before.... I'm regularly working with factory chambered 270 Winchesters that have case capacities of 69.7 (FN Winchester Featherweight) and 71.3 (older Browning X-Bolt)...

An Ackley chamber should be at least 73+ grains...

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[BuddyT]

I'll recheck my cases for both rifles and compare them to some new unfired cases. I'm bad at transcribing numbers. Will let you know.
Thanks
BuddyT

 

[BuddyT]

Rechecked my cases for both guns, measured 5 of each with the meniscus rounded out of the top, for 72.5 average.
Thanks
BuddyT

 

[NWBlacktail]

I started my first 280 AI loads, these are 168 grain Berger VLD Hunting. The others are (left to right) Nosler 150 ABLR, Bergr 168 VLD, Barns 168 LRX. That LRX is massive!

 

[SJB358]

Wow, that LRX is a long devil. I'd think it'd be something out of a big 7mm as well....

 

[Whitesheep]

Hi BuddyT, I agree with Lynn that your case capacity appears to be a little low as mine run in the 74's. Given your are not shooting a Nosler rifle what is the distance from the base to shoulder for fired brass in both rifles? Nosler and fire formed RP and FC brass measure 2.135" - 2.138" from my M48 with the fire formed consistently shorter by 0.001" or 0.002". They also run in the low 74's for case capacity while the Nosler average 75.0.

Base to shoulder was measured with the Hornady tool (Stoney Point). I understand these tools differ unit to unit, but if your brass is much shorter could that explain why your case capacity is 1 - 2 grains less?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Just now getting around to the 2nd loading of my Nosler brass for the 280 Ackley...I've known all along that I was running this thing pretty warm...the occasional ejector imprint keeps reminding me (just one every now and then).

Upon seating primers, I found the primer pockets were still tight enough to use again in all of them, even the ones with ejector marks.

BUT...I'm gonna back the load down .5 grain...that'll put me at 60.5 grains of RL 26 and should be a nice even 3,000 fps with the 160 AccuBond.

The pressure should be a little over 61,000 psi...where the previous load was a little over 64,000 on average.

 

[NWBlacktail]

I was seeing some marks at 60 grains RL26 with the 168 grain Berger VLD. That was on a 94 degree day though. Not all pieces of brass, just a few.

Generally, I think no good comes of a range day when temperatures are above 90F :mrgreen:

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Yep..

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[SJB358]

I was seeing some marks at 60 grains RL26 with the 168 grain Berger VLD. That was on a 94 degree day though. Not all pieces of brass, just a few.

Generally, I think no good comes of a range day when temperatures are above 90F :mrgreen:

I couldn't agree more!

Honestly backing down some to save cases makes a lot of sense to me. They don't get any cheaper as the years go on and your talking about a 25-50FPS change. Seems like a win win in most cases.

 

[sask boy]

Like most of us, I love the speed but have now settled for the accuracy. Every animal I have taken never once has told me he expired quicker because the bullet was traveling 50fps faster :mrgreen:.
You know I am kidding, but I now find it more satisfying to make the smallest MOA possible.

Blessings,
Dan

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I put the reloads on paper today... The 60.5 grain loads in once fired brass chrono'd 30 fps faster today (3,050 fps) than 61 grains in virgin brass (3,020 fps), chrono'd last year.... BUT, I checked a couple of rounds, today, that were loaded last year, virgin brass, 61 grains RL26....3,073 fps according to the MagnetoSpeed chrono... I'm going to need to figure that into the temp stability... Which puts that at .7 fps per degree (still very good)

Same lot of powder, primers, and brass...POI shifted .5" inch too.

Group size is the same as it always has been.... Just half inch higher at 100 yards.

 

[BF375]

I tested it in 300 Win Mag...and got over 150 fps difference from 75 degrees to 90 degrees....and over 100 fps difference from 75 degrees down to 35 degrees, that's over 2 fps per degree...I'll accept 1.3-1.5 fps per degree (on the cooler side)...but any more than that and I'm looking for another powder...may have just been a bad lot, but it pretty much ruined RL22 for me.

I've been using RL22 since it hit the market and have never seen this....ever.

Ive never seen a powder give a variance of 150 fps gain from 75-90 degrees;and100 fps from 75 to 35. None of these temps are extreme in the slightest.

IME it takes temps down to zero and below to show any degree of velocity loss. I think there are other things at work other than temp sensitivity when you see that much variance under normal conditions. (Wrong primer, inconsistent chronograph readings, inconsistent neck tension, inconsistent ignition,etc etc.)

When I see these reports on RL22 frankly I don't believe all of them. Never saw it with MRP either. Used to use it a lot in the 7 RemMag.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Plenty of people besides me have seen it...

Its hard to file it under wrong primer, dodgy chrono (I'm using a MagnetoSpeed), inconsistent neck tension or ignition...when the loads all shoot pretty much the same on any given set of conditions...but go out on a 30 degree day, dial in a 800 yard shot using data from a 70 degree day...and see what happens.

I've done it quite a few times now with MRP recently and RL22 in the past...both consistently hit low, way low.

If you've never shot past 400 yards (and I don't find fault with anyone who hasn't)...then no, you wouldn't notice it...it only makes a difference that matters at longer ranges.

I realize that many folks don't shoot that far and as a result have never witnessed the things temperature can do to ammo...but to say that temperature doesn't affect powder burn rates is to disregard the simple science of it. It does affect it...some powders more than others...and the various governments of the world have spent billions of dollars finding ways to produce more stable powders...

That is why we have the new powders we have today...the ones using "Extruded Impregnated" technology, for example...because government contracts funded the research that lead to the development of these now powders.

If you think powder is powder...you should read through this... http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002gun/ryr.pdf

Modern propellants are still evolving...rapidly....they've come a long way from salt peter, charcoal, and sulfur...and are now even way beyond what was not long ago the cutting edge of propellant technology.

The article below explains it better than i have time to right now...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder.htm

 

[BF375]

Thanks for the explanation. I routinely shoot to 600 which is as far as I can go without a 4 hour drive but I have better things to do. Don't care what happens at 800 yards; totally irrelevant, and wondering how much killing you've done at that distance?


I first spotted temp variations with IMR 4350 back around...mmm......1980 (?). And saw it at work since then with 760,IMR4831, 7828, etc etc. MRP used to show better than many others. IMR4831 was greta in the 270 but showed 100 fps loss in the 7 RM. 760 was atrocious in the 375 H&H.

I don't dispute that it happens with R22 and many others (although R22 seems to take a major beating from people who mostly repeat was they read ; the problem with Internet info) but I simply have not seen evidence of a problem with a 20-30 degree swing. I think that's a bunch of hooey to be honest.

IME it takes real cold to cause a problem; back here I used to see it in temps of 10F to zero. But I've killed animals in Alberta with 7 Mags and 270's stoked by RL22 at temps down to minus 25.

Whats the coldest temps you've hunted in? Have you shot any BG animals below zero at 600-800 yards?

At normal hunting ranges,anyone working up loads at 80-90 degrees and hunting at 30-40F has no cause for concern. Those temps are not "extreme"...certainly no one from Tennessee should be bothered by it.

No offense but I think it's BS.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I'm reminded of something I read a while back...written by a pretty well known shotgun coach...he was talking about the Churchill "instinctive" method of shotgunning...and how no matter how many ways he disproves that theory, scientifically...using facts that ARE in evidence...people still insist on believing in it....fact is, it does work...sometimes for some people, but never all the time for anyone.

The point is...I came to my conclusions about temp sensitive powders about 10 years before Al Gore invented the internet...and I did so through specific testing to find out why my 300 Win Mag was shooting high/low and why I was having to beat the bolt up on it at times (a few blown primers too).

I didn't read about it, I sure as heck didn't make it up...I found it the old fashioned way...through trial and error.

You say you use RL22 in 7mm Rem Mag...maybe it works OK in that round...it does work OK in the 270 Winchester, not near as tempermental as I have found it to be in the 280 Ackley and 300 Win Mag.

How many animals have I shot at beyond 800 yards? I lost count of that many years ago...I'm not one the newcomers to the art of shooting long...I started back in the early 80's, before it was "cool" like it is now.

Many thousands of rounds, a couple custom long range rifles, and a few shot out barrels later...I do OK at it.

Temps in Tennessee? They vary...the coldest I've hunted was a rabbit hunt (or maybe it was grouse/quail...seems I remember shooting some quail on that trip) back in 1985 when the temp hit a balmy -23 degrees (that was the temp, not the wind chill), couple feet of drifting snow too, as I recall...I also remember a few other occasions where it was a little below zero...I was young and dedicated back then, and as tough as woodpecker lips....there have been several days and shots where the temp was down around 0 and single digits over the years.

But I'm not here to convince anybody...every word I've posted here has been the truth as I have found it through my own testing, in the 280 Ackley (the subject of this thread)....as I have said many times here on this forum...powders behave differently depending on case capacity....what works in one round will not work so good in others.

Have you used RL22 or MRP in the 280 Ackley, and if so, did you specifically test it at temps from the 20's or 30's up through the mid 90's?

If not...please, and with all due respect, take your argument to any of the several threads here that are specifically about temp sensitivity so it doesn't drag my thread (load notes) off topic.

 

[BF375]

Im sorry you find my experiences objectionable simply because they don't jive with yours. I'm sure that makes you very uncomfortable.

I have no interest in the 280AI and could never see the sense in it. I was never an Ackley fan. He was not really a hunter. So, "no", I have not "tested" RL 22 in the 280 AI.

But I have RL22 in the 257 Roberts, the 270, the 280, the 7 Rem Mag, the 7mm Dakota,the 7mm STW,the 7mm Mashburn Super, the 270 Weatherby magnum,the 30/06, 300 Win Mag, 300 H&H mag,the 300 Weatherby magnum,and 300 WSM ,the 338 Win Mag and the 340 Weatherby over the years.


I first used it in the 280 Remington when RL22 and RL19 were first introduced. I had no difficulty with it during all this ( I am not a lab rat,just a hunter/shooter) shooting out to 600 yards,and only managed to blow "one primer" in all that time. I used that powder and also IMR4831 to kill a few elk at around 500 yards with the 300 Winchester and Weatherby. In shooting a great deal from 300-600 yards and chronographing all of it along the way (winter and summer),I have never seen the results you have posted where RL22 went bonkers in a 20-30 degree temperature swing....and I didn't blow any primers in the process either. Laughable stuff.

Anyone who blows that many primers while figuring out the "secrets " of RL 22 in the 300 Win Mag should really be taking notes; not giving lessons.

BTW try 76 gr RL 22 with the 180 gr Nosler Partition in the 300 Winchester Magnum. I never killed any further than 500 yards with the load so can't comment on what happens at 800 yards. Maybe you could fill me in? I worked the load up in an Ottmar/Burgess 1909 Argentine Mauser, Nice rifle. velocity was 3125 fps. I didn't blow any primers either;in that rifle or half a dozen others.

Thanks.

 

[NWBlacktail]

I'm fairly new to the 280ai, I just finished my semi custom last fall.

The funny thing about the 280 Ack is there is no "one thing" that makes it stand out above the sea of comparable cartridges. But it's all the little things, where if you add them up (at least for me) it really makes a sweet package. A bit better brass life, slightly better BC bullets at the same weight comparing a 30-06. Typically magazine will hold 5 as apposed to 3 for most magnums... those sorts of little things.

Truth be told, for practical hunting it doesn't do anything a good ole 30-06 won't do. And it's never going to have the power of a 7mm RM. But man... it's a sweetheart. :mrgreen:

I've been loading 168 grain bullets with RL26. Pressure seems to be somewhere above 2925 fps. 8)

 

[sask boy]

I hope this year I can use my 280AI for Elk, Moose, Antelope, Mule Deer & Whitetail Deer :shock:. I may use my 35 Whelen for the Moose hunt!!
I do all my hunting in one of the most extreme climate areas of NA, I will be using 150gr. ABLRs over top of RL-22. After this fall I should be able see if there is a noticeable difference in FPS as I normally hunt in temperatures from +20 C as a high to -30 C as a low!
The only thing I know for sure is I won't be able to control the yardage :shock:, I will try to keep it within 500 yards.

Blessings,
Dan

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Nosler brass available at Midway...