Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54MSch-Cartridge Feed Problem

[ElmerThud]

Well now, having bought the rifle back in late March, I hadn't been able to get any ammo until three wks ago. I didn't have any brass or dies...they just arrived last week. But, three wks ago I fired the rifle for the first time..RWS factory 159gn rounds.
That was when a problem came to light. The feed from rotary magazine to chamber just wouldn't work.
The view to note is the right side feed ramp.
The damage to cartridge cases when chambering a round, not to mention the force required to overcome the jam.
Finally, the re-shaped right hand feed ramp after I worked on it polishing metal away yesterday.
Now cartridges feed smoothly from rotary magazine into the chamber... took some time and encouragement for me to be brave enough to do this work, - but it has paid off.

What I don't understand is - the rifle would never have left the factory unable to chamber cartridges. I could not see any valid reason for the jamming issue as absolutely everything around the action/mag/chamber/cartridge release tab - all seemed perfectly in order and no-one had messed with it. So, what has changed to render the feed useless!
I have no idea.....only that it works correctly now.

 

[Rigbymauser]

All Mannlicher Schönauers at that time they were made were litterately a handfitted gun. I suspect from your description some former owner had lost the original Rotary steel magazine and had it replaced with another one. However they hadn´t done what you did. Used the time to grind angles on the feedingramp so the cartridge could cycle perfectly.
So to your Question. No..a rifle from Ferdinans shop would never had left without a Meister Büchsenmacher prüfung. Nie!.

 

[ElmerThud]

All Mann.Sch at that time they were made were litterately a handfitted gun. I suspect from your description some former owner had lost the original Rotary steel magazine and had it replaced with another one. However they hadn´t done what you did. Used the time to grind angles on the feedingramp.

It's a distinct possibilty the rotary mag is not the original. The mags do not carry any serial number to identify them to original rifles.
However as I cannot see any measurable reason why the feed system was not working correctly, I may assume the angles on the current rotary magazine are not of the correct shape for the feed ramp in the action...for this reason I polished the ramp until cartridges fed smoothly.
Cheers, ET

 

[DrMike]

All Mannlicher Schönauers at that time they were made were litterately a handfitted gun. I suspect from your description some former owner had lost the original Rotary steel magazine and had it replaced with another one. However they hadn´t done what you did. Used the time to grind angles on the feedingramp so the cartridge could cycle perfectly.
So to your Question. No..a rifle from Ferdinans shop would never had left without a Meister Büchsenmacher prüfung. Nie!.

Sounds like a reasonable assessment of the situation. The Mannlicher Schönauers I have handled fed beautifully. Since there did not appear to have been damage to the magazine, it is likely that it was replaced and not properly dressed. Sounds as if you did a proper job of dressing.

 

[SJB358]

That's good stuff ET. Glad you have it cleaned up and operational now. They are very intricate rifles so the explanation of a replaced magazine makes sense to me. Glad it feeds well now. Can't wait to see it kitted out and ready to hunt.

 

[ElmerThud]

Well that's one issue/project that's ended up positively and thanks for your comments chaps. I have to admit it had me baffled & wondering if I was brave enough to undertake the work myself..or go the expensive route and pass it to a 'proper' gunsmith.

I called the previous owner to ask if he'd experienced feed issues... he owned the rifle for the past 18 years.. he said NOT. So either he put cartridges in one at a time or did not shoot the rifle.
He certainly could not have fed rounds from the magazine to breech using the bolt!
Either way it was an unexpected problem to sort out.
Anyway, onward and upward as they say.

So the upcoming project is to scope this rifle. I've bought the scope now, a Schmidt & Bender 8x56 Klassik 30mm tube (Hungarian)....cheap and cheerful, but damn good optics.
Saving up for the mounting system now.
Recknagel bases & Zeigler rings.
ATB ET

 

[DrMike]

First rate optics, for certain. Should be an excellent set-up.

 

[ElmerThud]

First rate optics, for certain. Should be an excellent set-up.

I hope so DrMike. It's going to take another lump of cash to buy the parts & I hope to order them at the end of this month...two/three wks delivery then the task of fitting them.
I'm hoping to get one of the engineers in the factory to pin solder the barrel ring and drill/tap the rear mount. Finally milling the rear offset 30mm ring to fit the rear mount....hoping all will turn out well by the end of August and zeroing in Sept. ready for the stags!

 

[Oldtrader3]

Elmer, if you can find the May 2015 issue of American Rifleman, they have an article with loads and testing of a MS 6.5x54. If you can't access that issue. I can post a scan of the handloads in the article online for you? Let me know?

 

[ElmerThud]

Elmer, if you can find the May 2015 issue of American Rifleman, they have an article with loads and testing of a MS 6.5x54. If you can't access that issue. I can post a scan of the handloads in the article online for you? Let me know?

That would be interesting OT3. I'll take a look and come back to you if I can't access the article.
I hope that will be OK with you. But I am most certainly interested in all the articles I can find.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ar_201505/index.php?startid=18#/44
I found it here OT3. Thankyou.

Scotty has helped considerably up to now with the provision of load data, even though I haven't yet got going with load testing/development. I have made up a few rounds to shoot using the peep sight, so I'll see how I get on with that.
I really need to get the scope onto the rifle before I can develop properly.


I also found a spare barrel - brand new unused since early 1970. Came into the UK from Steyr via Interarms, Manchester. It's a genuine 6.5x54MSch. I bought it and am keeping it tucked away for a rainy day!
Cheers, ATB ET

 

[Oldtrader3]

Welcome, glad that I could help, Elmer.

 

[ElmerThud]

I just read the article OT3 thanks for letting me know.
As you see I picked it up on the digital version and it's an interesting read.
It's a pity it isn't all printed together rather than spread from page 42 through to page 84 so it would be easier to print a hard copy to keep.

My first trial load is 37gns IMR4350 with 140gn Hornady SST/Rem. 9 1/2 primer...I'll see if that works.

Also a nice article in there on page 38-39 ref Lord Lovat Fraser/D-Day
Cheers, ET

 

[Oldtrader3]

I saw that article on Fraser. Very nice and complimentary.

 

[ElmerThud]

Nice article OT3 & sounds typical of his eccentricities...

 

[SJB358]

Can't wait to see how it prints ET. Those 140 SSTs should be in the sweet spot in your 6.5 MS.

What's the twist on those rifles? Must be fairly tight since they were made for the old 156-160 grain bullets.

 

[ElmerThud]

I think the twist is 1-8 1/2 or 1-9...not sure and I cannot determine using my cleaning rods.
Although the rifling looks fine through a bore scope and the barrel not pitted, it is clean of fouling including copper. I haven't been able to get the grip required to measure accurately the twist.

For a 93year old firearm the barrel looks quite remarkable!
Anyway, it shot the 159gn RWS round nose soft points pretty well I thought (considering I was using the peep sight).

I think it will probably handle the 140's easily and perhaps even the 129gn SST's too.
Looking forward to getting to testing properly when the scope is on.

 

[ElmerThud]

Some plausible info. came my way and was re-sparked by an email I received from the prvious owner of the MSch rifle I have.
His email tells me 'he doesn't actually remember firing the rifle' it was to be a project for restoration..but when he got the rifle home, thought it 'too nice to meddle with'.

RigbyMauser's comment and my thoughts the rifle wouldn't have left the factory unable to function correctly led me down a slightly different path, particularly after I'd seen photo's of later rifles with a different feed ramp profile..similar to the form I re-shaped mine into.

I now think the rotary magazines that we know are 'cartridge specific' were machined with different shoulder ramps on the mag. rotor blades themselves and so, if too shallow, would be unable to raise the feeding cartridge high enough to access the older style of feed ramp.

So it seems possible a magazine switch either knowingly or unknowingly by unknowledgeable staff at a dealership, could easily result in this problem becoming apparent. This would occur leaving absolutely no evidence of wear or other possible reason for the malfunction.
Just my thoughts from all the information I have available. Cheers, ET

PS: A friend recently sent me photo's of the different shapes of rotary magazines for these rifles and they certainly have been machined very specifically. Really wonderful machining - almost like jewelery.

 

[Rigbymauser]

I think it will probably handle the 140's easily and perhaps even the 129gn SST's too.
Looking forward to getting to testing properly when the scope is on.

You have done your grinding job well I see....normally the 1903 Schönauer would never feed from the magazine with the above mentioned bullets. Only a 159 roundnose would work.

BTW: My best load was using 43grain Vithavouri N160 to a 159grain Teilmantel(softnose) from RWS.

 

[ElmerThud]

You have done your grinding job well I see....normally the 1903 Schönauer would never feed from the magazine with the above mentioned bullets. Only a 159 roundnose would work.

BTW: My best load was using 43grain Vithavouri N160 to a 159grain Teilmantel(softnose) from RWS.

Thanks for the kind words Rigbymauser, - I had to be very 'brave' to do this work and make the change. I really was worried about buggering up the rifle - it's an irreplaceable piece and to work on the action feed ramp was a challenge.
The work took me around three hours solid and I was very unsure of what the outcome might be.

Anyway, it worked out just fine....just needs a tiny bit more polishing for absolute perfection.
I ran out of polishing stones, but now new ones have arrived, so this weekend I'll finish the job.
Cheers, ET