QL 6mm Creed please

R

remingtonman_25_06

Handloader
Nov 17, 2005
2,807
402
Can someone please do a QL prediction for the 6mm creed with a 28" barrel and the 108g ELDMs?! All powders, Max pressure.

Trying to figure out what route I want to go for a new LR coyote build. Running into some issues with the 240 WBY and 108s at the speeds it will drive them (3350-3400) It will rip jackets apart due to the high RPMs with the 7.5 or 8 twist, but if you go with a slower twist 8.5 or 9 to get the RPMs down, your SF factor numbers also go down substantially. So this has me looking at slightly slower calibers/efficiency.

Wanting to rebarrel my current 240 WBY with its 24" 10 twist to actually get more out of it...Was going to do a 28" 7.5 or 8 twist but that's just not going to work...Could do a 8.5 or 9 twist, but I'm worries about the SF not being enough. Temperatures can be 10 degrees in the winter and I'm only at 600ft ASL.
 
Heres the chart I came up with for RPMs and SF with the 240 WBY and the 108g ELDM at 3300-3400 with an 8/8.5/9 twist.
 

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I can tell you my little 6 CM does about 3150 with Staball 6.5 and 105 Hornadys Jorey, 22” barrel on it as well in ADG brass. I think 3050’ish the norm for 4350 type powders.

Mines a 1-7.5 twist barrel as well.

Just me but the little 6 CM has a lot to offer. Plus it’ll conserve a bit of powder too.



No experience with other bullets and powders though since I haven’t had a ton of time to mess with it lately.
 
Do you think it could do 3200fps with a 26" tube then? Kinda seems like 3200 is the threshold for RPMs and twist for the 108s. Wouldnt make much sense to do a 240 WBY at that point and burn 10g more powder. I could always download the 240, but theres not much fun or point in that.
 
remingtonman_25_06":2qu8c545 said:
Do you think it could do 3200fps with a 26" tube then? Kinda seems like 3200 is the threshold for RPMs and twist for the 108s. Wouldnt make much sense to do a 240 WBY at that point and burn 10g more powder. I could always download the 240, but theres not much fun or point in that.
Click to expand...

Is it really a thing Jorey? I guess what I’m saying is throats tend to tear up jackets, not rifling. So if you have screaming fast loads over a really rough throat then I could see that happening. Pure RPMs tearing up the ELD would make me not wanna use the darned things anyhow even if they didn’t blow up if the jackets were that fragile. They wouldn’t be worth beans for hunting unless you just wanted crazy blow up sorta action.

And yeah, I’d bet you would get serious speeds with a 26-28” barrel. F-Class guys run the little BR with the heavies outta 30” barrels and get amazing speeds from the heavier 6mm bullets.
 
Code: 
Cartridge          : 6 mm Creedmoor
Bullet             : .243, 108, Hornady ELD-M 24561
Useable Case Capaci: 47.116 grain H2O = 3.059 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 28.0 inch = 711.2 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61250 psi, or 422 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 112 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

11 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 76 *C               110.3     51.6     3.34    3315   100.0    61250   11049   1.233  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-26 *C              102.0     47.6     3.09    3270   100.0    61250   10285   1.254  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP *C                       102.8     46.6     3.02    3244   100.0    61250   10434   1.253  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 *C              110.9     47.9     3.10    3240   100.0    61250   10003   1.244  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 80 *C               112.0     52.8     3.42    3240    98.0    58505   11313   1.270  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 *C                 104.5     46.4     3.00    3236    98.7    61250   10740   1.250  ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517                107.2     49.7     3.22    3231    99.3    61250   10519   1.242  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12                  107.1     49.6     3.22    3230    99.4    61250   10500   1.242  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                    104.8     48.4     3.13    3225    97.6    61250   10804   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570 *C                 112.0     51.3     3.32    3223    95.0    56871   11613   1.283  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                           108.9     46.0     2.98    3217    99.0    61250   10365   1.242  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                       103.1     46.0     2.98    3217    99.0    61250   10365   1.242  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N565 *C                 109.4     48.8     3.16    3215    98.8    61250   10617   1.269  ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 *C                    104.7     46.0     2.98    3210    99.7    61250   10307   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation       104.7     46.0     2.98    3210    99.7    61250   10307   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C              104.7     46.0     2.98    3210    99.7    61250   10307   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 +C                96.0     44.4     2.88    3209   100.0    61250    9681   1.246  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP15                        107.5     46.2     2.99    3209    99.6    61250   10322   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                     107.5     46.2     2.99    3209    99.6    61250   10322   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 *C                     112.0     48.6     3.15    3205    99.1    58331   10687   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP30                        112.0     48.6     3.15    3205    99.1    58331   10687   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213                        104.0     45.6     2.96    3201    98.9    61250   10287   1.241  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60 *T                93.2     42.4     2.75    3198   100.0    61250    9249   1.248  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214                        107.8     48.6     3.15    3189    99.1    61250   10121   1.240  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                     104.5     49.4     3.20    3185    99.9    61250    9804   1.249  ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17                            92.1     42.0     2.72    3173   100.0    61250    9185   1.258  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T               92.1     42.0     2.72    3173   100.0    61250    9185   1.258  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T            97.1     41.1     2.66    3172   100.0    61250    9170   1.249  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RL16 TZ *C *T                97.1     41.1     2.66    3172   100.0    61250    9170   1.249  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905                      105.9     45.6     2.96    3171    98.6    61250   10054   1.259  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP36 ZT *C *T               106.7     45.3     2.94    3170   100.0    61250    9173   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T           106.7     45.3     2.94    3170   100.0    61250    9173   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209                        100.8     43.5     2.82    3162    99.5    61250    9763   1.249  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT *C ~approximation    107.5     47.6     3.09    3161    97.2    61250   10158   1.248  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C              101.3     44.0     2.85    3160    99.5    61250    9819   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 518                 97.6     43.8     2.84    3157   100.0    61250    9537   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511                 93.8     43.4     2.81    3153   100.0    61250    9462   1.264  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation         102.1     44.3     2.87    3152    99.5    61250    9748   1.258  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      96.9     43.4     2.81    3152   100.0    61250    9449   1.264  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62                   95.5     43.5     2.82    3152   100.0    61250    9249   1.276  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        91.5     42.0     2.72    3150   100.0    61250    9489   1.266  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      91.5     42.0     2.72    3150   100.0    61250    9489   1.266  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 *T                   112.0     48.1     3.12    3142    98.7    58433   10020   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2217                        112.0     48.1     3.12    3142    98.7    58433   10020   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33 *C              112.0     52.8     3.42    3141    94.3    53392   11302   1.322  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365                        98.6     42.6     2.76    3134   100.0    61250    8755   1.274  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation           99.2     43.1     2.79    3133    99.4    61250    9566   1.259  ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4                         99.2     43.1     2.79    3133    99.4    61250    9566   1.259  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 *C                        96.1     43.1     2.79    3133    99.4    61250    9566   1.259  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T                102.5     45.0     2.92    3131    98.3    61250    9700   1.256  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 *T                   106.7     45.0     2.92    3131    98.3    61250    9700   1.256  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C                  93.6     41.6     2.69    3128   100.0    61250    9161   1.276  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C                        96.4     41.4     2.68    3127   100.0    61250    9036   1.271  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation          96.4     41.4     2.68    3127   100.0    61250    9033   1.271  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                       95.6     41.5     2.69    3122   100.0    61250    8991   1.289  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385                       101.5     44.6     2.89    3119    99.9    61250    9348   1.279  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780              99.9     45.8     2.97    3107    99.4    61250    9322   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT *C ~approximation     96.9     42.7     2.77    3107    99.9    61250    9184   1.273  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           101.1     42.1     2.73    3106   100.0    61250    8828   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S071                         110.8     45.5     2.95    3104   100.0    61250    9042   1.293  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                      104.8     45.5     2.95    3104   100.0    61250    9042   1.293  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 *C                 106.9     45.9     2.97    3100    99.7    61250    9127   1.269  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904                      100.0     42.8     2.78    3100    98.8    61250    9336   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T              103.6     43.8     2.84    3092    98.4    61250    9402   1.262  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    112.0     48.9     3.17    3090    99.7    50536   10426   1.350
ADI AR 2225                        112.0     48.9     3.17    3090    99.7    50536   10426   1.350
Lovex S070                          96.1     41.3     2.67    3090   100.0    61250    9017   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 *C                 106.8     44.5     2.88    3081    98.7    61250    9157   1.266  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                 99.0     41.6     2.69    3077   100.0    61250    8311   1.273  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218                        112.0     51.8     3.36    3069    92.0    51418   11335   1.340
Bofors RP7                          93.9     40.0     2.59    3069    99.8    61250    8901   1.276  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907                       93.9     40.0     2.59    3069    99.8    61250    8901   1.276  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        90.9     40.1     2.60    3068    99.8    61250    8894   1.276  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361                        99.0     45.8     2.97    3066    98.2    61250    9156   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065                          95.0     40.3     2.61    3063   100.0    61250    8659   1.282  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903                       91.3     39.2     2.54    3059   100.0    61250    8321   1.294  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355                        91.5     38.9     2.52    3056   100.0    61250    8347   1.287  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D100                         112.0     52.3     3.39    3044    89.8    59549    9582   1.282  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41 *C                112.0     51.8     3.36    3019    87.1    54449   10043   1.320  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron *C*T              107.9     46.4     3.00    3014    91.7    61250    9015   1.271  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217 *C                       112.0     47.9     3.10    2992    98.4    44079   10532   1.445
Vihtavuori N170 *C                 112.0     48.1     3.12    2973    92.0    52782    9584   1.364  ! Near Maximum !
 
Looks like your spinning those slightly over 302k RPMs Scotty...No issues there blowing bullets up??

Oh it's a real thing. Jake has blew up bullets in his 22 CM and had to back off the velocity, or change bullets.

And I've read a few guys running hot 6mms blowing up the 108 eldms at 3300fps in 7.5 and 8 twists as well.

I've been talking with Kirby Allen back and forth on the subject, and he is one of the more knowledgeable guys when it comes to pushing heavy for caliber bullets fast. He says I'm on the edge of what the 6mm heavy bullets were designed for at 240 speeds.

The issue arises after a few hundred rounds where the throat or barrel starts to get a little rough. I dont want to spend all this money to have bullets that go poof after 200-300 rounds...

I'm going to call Bartlein and have a chat with Frank Green as well.

I'd really love to do my 240 with a 28" tube and get them 108s scooting 3400fps. Man that thing would be a dog slayer out to 1200, and be a laser, buck the wind, etc. Just not sure it's real feasible...

Reason I want to use the 108s is simple. They're cheap, accurate, have a high BC and they will expand out past 1K better than anything else. This is a coyote rifle, nothing else! I could care less about ripping dogs in half lol
 
Heck no, those 108’s don’t offer enough BC to make it worthwhile to change and they’re soft on top of that. It’s why I’ve stuck with the 105 HPBT. It opens, digs deep and doesn’t care how fast you push them.

To me it wasn’t worth chasing BC just to minimize killing ability. I know the 105’s work up close and far out as well. I sent you the pictures of my cousins 240 and the 105 buck kill at 70’ish yards.
 
Looks like the little 6 creed is pretty doable at 3200fps and some change with the 108s with a few powders. Not really the powders I prefer to use, but it does it.

I'm looking more at the temp stable line of powders and it's more in the 3150 range
 
I still have a pile of those 105 HPBTs as well. Like 600 or so. Maybe you can push them a little harder then the 108s and not blow them up?
 
My cousins 240 launched them at 3300 without issues. But that is a 10 twist. But after seeing a bunch of deer killed with them I have enough faith in them to know they aren’t fragile.

I’d try them before I bought into the 108’s myself.
 
Yah I used those 105s at 3250-3300fps out of my 10 twist 240 and it did great until it got cold haha. Went from 1/2" groups at 200 yards in 80 degrees, to 5" groups at 25 degrees. Just not enough twist with the 10. Its borderline stable...

Not much difference in BC with the 105 HPBT or 108 ELDM, but I think the ELDM will expand a lot better past 600 yards on coyotes due to the plastic tip.
 
Thanks for the QL Dr. Mike! I'll screen shot it and save it. Still doing some research and need to make a couple phone calls before I buy a barrel...
 
We ve been able to keep 108 s alive at 3350 in a 27” tube with a 6-280AI. 110 MK have went past 3400 FPS in a 30” barreled rifle of same caliber. Don’t think your expansion with MK will be as good though but man they shoot flat!

We ve had more bullet blowups with the 88 Eldm in 22 caliber though. 3200-3250 FPS with those in a 26” barreled 22 CM or 22-250 AI is all we can get. Crank them to 3350-3375 FPS in the 30” tube and around half of them hit the dirt 30-40 yards out!!
 
We ve been able to keep 108 s alive at 3350 in a 27” tube with a 6-280AI. 110 MK have went past 3400 FPS in a 30” barreled rifle of same caliber. Don’t think your expansion with MK will be as good though but man they shoot flat!

We ve had more bullet blowups with the 88 Eldm in 22 caliber though. 3200-3250 FPS with those in a 26” barreled 22 CM or 22-250 AI is all we can get. Crank them to 3350-3375 FPS in the 30” tube and around half of them hit the dirt 30-40 yards out!!
 
Interesting. I haven't pushed the 108's past about 3,000 fps.

Am using a Ruger Precision Rifle, 26" - I see that Ruger advertises a 1:7 twist now, but I think mine was supposed to be 1:7.7 or so...

At any rate, it shoots the 108 Hornady bullets just peachy. Frankly I haven't tried any other bullets, and only two powders: H4350 and Superformance. Biggest problem now is simply finding bullets. I've got a couple of hundred, but that's it. Easy to find replacement barrels, hard to find bullets to wear this one out! :)

Guy
 
My buddy used to shoot the 75 AMax out of 9” twist .220 Swift at 3450ish with RL26. And we met a guy at a range that was shooting almost the same load of RL26 out of an 8” twist 22-250 AI. Both rifles were pretty impressive. I used to shoot a .243 with the 105 AMax at 3150 and felt that if anyone was at a disadvantage, it was me. Always thought those 75’s at 3450 would have made the ultimate coyote rifle. As a bonus, .22 cal ELDs are actually cheaper. .243 cal ELDs don’t really save you any money over the larger cals.
 
I'm not looking to save money here. Looking for the ultimate coyote rifle, and the 6mm/240 108 eldm at 3400fps still outdoes the 22 cal 75 eldm at 3400-3450. The hot 22 cals would potentially run into the same issues at 3400fps with the 8 twists dusting jackets as well spinning them at 310K RPM...9 twist would be better off with lower RPMs, but then your SF suffers as well, just like the 6mm 108s at 3400 with an 8/9 twist. It's the same thing essentially. The SF with the 9 twists is marginable at 1.1 Muzzle velocity X 720 ÷ the twist gives your RPMs. That's what ultimately dust bullets. Can get your SF numbers from strelok PRO or Bergers website.
 
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