wildman
Beginner
- Jun 13, 2009
- 171
- 5
Need some data on 120 speer Gold dot and horn 123 sst with cfe 223... Thanks Geo.
Quick load 6.5 Grendel
- Thread starter wildman
- Start date
Go over to the 6.5 Grendel web site and ask this question.
I have been hand loading for 40 years and have loaded for about half the calibers that have ever been made. The 6.5 Grendel is a different critter. I have two ARs in this cal. One with a BCA 20" and the other with an Owen Works 18" barrel. One thing you learn really quickly is if you start to see normal pressure signs you are already WAY OVER pressure with the Grr. I as well as a number of others have tried CFE223 with numerous weight and make bullets and could not find what I would call a decent load accuracy wise. IMR 8208 has been GREAT for me. Be really careful working up loads with the 120 Speer Gold Dot. This is a great bullet but you will run into pressure with it way before other bullets of the same weight. I have never been able to get the 123 SST to shoot consistent for me with any powder and load in either of my rifles and the factory ammo will not shoot well either in my rifles.
I have been hand loading for 40 years and have loaded for about half the calibers that have ever been made. The 6.5 Grendel is a different critter. I have two ARs in this cal. One with a BCA 20" and the other with an Owen Works 18" barrel. One thing you learn really quickly is if you start to see normal pressure signs you are already WAY OVER pressure with the Grr. I as well as a number of others have tried CFE223 with numerous weight and make bullets and could not find what I would call a decent load accuracy wise. IMR 8208 has been GREAT for me. Be really careful working up loads with the 120 Speer Gold Dot. This is a great bullet but you will run into pressure with it way before other bullets of the same weight. I have never been able to get the 123 SST to shoot consistent for me with any powder and load in either of my rifles and the factory ammo will not shoot well either in my rifles.
- Thread starter
- #3
wildman
Beginner
- Jun 13, 2009
- 171
- 5
Thanks for the info. 1 shot if you don't mind me asking. What load and bullet are you using ,also what seems to be the reason for getting pressure problems with the 120 speer g d bullets ?
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 36,924
- 5,115
Code:
Cartridge : 6.5 Grendel (SAAMI)
Bullet : .264, 123, Hornady SST 26173
Useable Case Capaci: 30.747 grain H2O = 1.996 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 92 28.35 2235 1364 36247 7402 88.8 1.284
-09.0 93 28.67 2261 1397 37465 7509 89.4 1.266
-08.0 94 28.98 2288 1430 38729 7615 90.1 1.246
-07.0 95 29.30 2315 1464 40039 7719 90.7 1.227
-06.0 96 29.61 2342 1498 41400 7821 91.2 1.208
-05.0 97 29.93 2370 1533 42811 7921 91.8 1.190
-04.0 98 30.24 2397 1569 44278 8019 92.4 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 99 30.56 2424 1605 45802 8115 92.9 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 100 30.87 2451 1641 47385 8208 93.4 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 101 31.19 2479 1678 49031 8298 93.9 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 102 31.50 2506 1716 50742 8386 94.4 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
+01.0 103 31.82 2534 1754 52525 8472 94.9 1.084 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 104 32.13 2562 1792 54380 8554 95.3 1.068 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 105 32.45 2589 1831 56310 8633 95.8 1.051 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 106 32.76 2617 1870 58316 8710 96.2 1.035 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 107 33.08 2645 1910 60422 8783 96.6 1.020 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 102 31.50 2652 1921 61317 8485 99.1 1.017 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 102 31.50 2322 1472 41469 7839 85.7 1.209
Code:
Cartridge : 6.5 Grendel (SAAMI)
Bullet : .264, 123, Hornady SST 26173
Useable Case Capaci: 30.747 grain H2O = 1.996 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 51250 psi, or 353 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 112 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 108.8 32.4 2.10 2566 97.3 51250 9096 1.085 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 108.1 32.1 2.08 2557 96.4 51250 8912 1.087 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 108.1 32.1 2.08 2557 96.4 51250 8912 1.087 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 110.2 31.9 2.07 2527 94.3 51250 8592 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 112.0 33.3 2.16 2508 93.1 49019 8651 1.114 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 109.5 33.1 2.14 2507 91.4 51250 8547 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 105.3 30.2 1.95 2506 97.4 51250 8183 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 105.3 30.2 1.95 2506 97.4 51250 8183 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 105.6 29.3 1.90 2505 99.7 51250 7902 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 107.2 32.1 2.08 2504 90.4 51250 8454 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 107.2 32.1 2.08 2504 90.4 51250 8454 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 107.6 30.2 1.96 2498 97.1 51250 8083 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 99.5 27.6 1.79 2496 100.0 51250 7573 1.144 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 97.5 29.1 1.89 2493 99.1 51250 7811 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 99.8 29.1 1.89 2493 99.1 51250 7811 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 112.0 31.4 2.03 2487 93.7 49066 8383 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 112.0 31.4 2.03 2486 93.7 49018 8378 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 112.0 31.7 2.06 2485 93.6 47769 8437 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 106.9 29.6 1.92 2483 96.9 51250 8005 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 112.0 32.8 2.12 2476 90.8 49379 8430 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 103.7 30.0 1.95 2473 93.9 51250 8060 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 111.7 31.3 2.03 2456 91.0 51250 8012 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 518 112.0 32.8 2.12 2452 89.6 48153 8357 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 92.8 28.2 1.83 2448 98.5 51250 7507 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 92.6 28.2 1.83 2448 98.5 51250 7507 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 110.9 32.4 2.10 2446 86.6 51250 8035 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 112.0 32.2 2.09 2443 89.4 49878 8001 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7 97.5 29.7 1.92 2443 93.7 51250 7733 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 109.8 30.5 1.97 2442 92.7 51250 7823 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 97.4 26.2 1.70 2438 99.3 51250 7381 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 112.0 30.9 2.00 2434 93.4 44423 8379 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 112.0 31.6 2.05 2432 96.0 43484 8414 1.171
Bofors RP7 107.8 30.0 1.94 2417 89.7 51250 7674 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 107.8 30.0 1.94 2417 89.7 51250 7674 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 104.4 30.0 1.94 2417 89.7 51250 7668 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 112.0 33.8 2.19 2411 86.2 47020 8480 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 112.0 30.7 1.99 2394 94.7 45112 7758 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 112.0 31.7 2.06 2383 85.1 47280 7803 1.144 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 112.0 31.7 2.06 2383 85.1 47280 7803 1.144 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 112.0 31.6 2.05 2351 83.7 45566 7765 1.163 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 112.0 31.3 2.03 2341 83.5 46630 7427 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361 112.0 33.8 2.19 2339 82.6 48141 7301 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 112.0 31.7 2.06 2337 83.8 43527 7804 1.186
IMR 4831 112.0 30.4 1.97 2334 91.1 40600 7801 1.221
Winchester Supreme 780 112.0 33.5 2.17 2329 83.8 46276 7487 1.160 ! Near Maximum !- Thread starter
- #5
wildman
Beginner
- Jun 13, 2009
- 171
- 5
Thank you Dr.Mike
Reading what Speer has to say about all their Gold Dot rifle bullets is that because of how they are constructed it takes less powder to reach certain pressures and velocities. With the 120 Gold Dot in both of my ARs with 28.0 grs. IMR 8208, Hornady Case, CCI 450 primer is absolute MAX but is the most accurate load for me but my COAL is 2.275 and I use a medium Lee Factory Crimp . This COAL is too long to work through Elander mags but does fine in ASC or AR-Stoner mags.
- Thread starter
- #8
wildman
Beginner
- Jun 13, 2009
- 171
- 5
1 shot are you getting descent velocity with this load ?
- Thread starter
- #9
wildman
Beginner
- Jun 13, 2009
- 171
- 5
1 shot if what i'm reading from speer is correct your about 3 grains over max with 28 grains of imr 8208 no wonder your getting pressure signs .
With 28 grs IMR 8208 I am NOT OVER PRESSURE in my rifles. But this is a safe MAX in my rifles. The Speer data is WAY LIGHT compared to my work up. I can safely go another half grain more with Sierra 120 Pro Hunter and Hornady 123 SSTs.
Out of my 20" BCA barrel I average 2550 fps and out of my 18" Oden Works barrel I average 2500 fps.
Out of my 20" BCA barrel I average 2550 fps and out of my 18" Oden Works barrel I average 2500 fps.
- Thread starter
- #11
wildman
Beginner
- Jun 13, 2009
- 171
- 5
My barrel is 18 inch barrel 2500 with either the sst 123 or the 120 gold dot is what i'm hoping to get with 1 inch group at hundred yards . I never dreamed this cartridge was as touchy on pressure spikes as everyone keeps telling me i'm kinda at a disadvantage trying to work up a load for it because i don't have a chronograph .I have always been able to id pressure signs from checking my brass.
When working up loads especially on an AR platform it is a must to have a chrno. The AR is not designed to handle the pressures of the usual bolt rifle. I have discovered working with the ARs in several calibers that when you start to see "pressure" signs like we usually gage in bolt rifles you are already way over pressure for the AR platform. I usually take an average of the velocity that data list for which ever bullet make and weight I will be using and then do a ladder test over the chrno to get to that velocity range watching the reaction of the rifle with each shot. I have been hand loading for 40 years and have learned a few caution signs like recoil impulse and how far and the direction the case is ejected in the AR platform. In my work up for two different 6.5 Grendel rifles I believe that Speer's data is a bit on the light side with some powders listed and IMR 8208 is one of them. When you get the whole Gold Dot bullet story you find that they are designed to work as advertised in a specific, pretty narrow, impact velocity range. Remember they are meeting FBI penetration standards through barriers, windshields etc. Push them faster and they expand more and they don't penetrate as deep. Plus their data was done using a Universal receiver with a 24" barrel which most likely had a minimum dimension chamber to reach their desired velocity working window. I don't remember exactly what my velocity was from my 20" barrel with Speer's listed MAX load of 25.4 grs IMR 8208 with the 120 gr GD but it was not over 2300 fps. In MY rifles with MY components with rounds loaded to MY specifications with MY equipment I developed MY load. Your mileage may and probably will very. Proceed at your own risk.
