Reloading Die Question.

[ShadeTree]

Here's the info: Mauser 22-250. Plenty of headspace. I make a false shoulder and fireform, then set my die from there on out.

Here's what's going on, (I think). Because the die is raised higher than normal because of the longer case head to shoulder length due to headspace, I have to bump the shoulder about a minimum of 003.

If I don't and try to just bump the shoulder 1/2 of a thousandth, or even 1-1.5 thousandth, every other firing or so to get longer case life, the last 1/4 or 1/3 of the bolt handle closing is TIGHT. I believe that's because the die is not turned down far enough to size the bottom of the case. It's not because of a tight shoulder. I check and double check.

It shoots well either way. Just shot it again this evening with the die set to TIGHT bolt closing and the 4 shot group was .566.

I just use what I got and am not experienced or knowledgeable at all with body dies. Would a body die correct this issue?? Size the whole case while leaving the shoulder alone?

 

[sako2]

Try butting a feeler gauge between the case head and shell holder.

 

[ShadeTree]

Try butting a feeler gauge between the case head and shell holder.

Sako, I'm working this out in my head, that might work.

So just as an example, if my die was adjusted for zero shoulder bump with say a .002 feeler gauge slid in under the case head in the shell holder, there would now be .002 more case above the top shelf of the shell holder. .002 more case into the die body.

Correct?

 

[sako2]

Yes.

 

[ShadeTree]

Yes.

Hey hey. Makes sense to me. That should work. I'll mess with trying to get it worked out next week. Thanks!!

 

[sako2]

Your welcome. Its worth a shot.

 

[358 WCF]

Shade Tree,

I'm unclear what shimming the bottom of the case will do if you dont want to set the shoulder back farther. From the original post it sounds like the expansion ring needs to be sized down.

If the diameter of the expansion ring is not being sized, but you dont want to push the shoulder back any farther, try using a 45ACP sizing die with the decapping stem removed. Most, but not all, die sets will allow the upper part of the case to pass thru untouched. Without a 45ACP die, 22-250 should fit into 308, 30-06, etc. dies without mishap. Maybe another of your dies has a smaller base diameter?

 

[ShadeTree]

So, I done some testing and checking. Nothing really got me what I was looking for. As far as using a different die, that would work using a 30-06 die for squeezing the base of say a 243, 308, etc, but the 22-250 is kind of an oddball size at the base. All those kind of cartridges are around .004 or greater in diameter so they wouldn't do anything to size the base down.

I had a fair amount of cases that I had discarded from a previous batch that I now used to do tests on, to show what was exactly the least amount of shoulder bump I could set the die at and not have an abnormally tight bolt close.

.0025 seems to be the spot for a still fairly minimal amount of shoulder bump while allowing fairly normal bolt close. Gets just a tad snug right at the end of closing. .002 is workable but still more than usual tight right at the bottom of bolt close. .0015 is like hitting a wall when the bolt handle is about 2/3 down. TIGHT from there till closing.

I guess other than getting a custom die made I will work with the .0025 set up. I could also get the barrel set back a thread and rechambered, but the way it shoots I'd hate to spend money and risk ending up with less accuracy.

 

[sako2]

Can't you adjust your die for that set back.

 

[ShadeTree]

Can't you adjust your die for that set back.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking? Setting the die to bump the shoulder .003 or more results in a bolt closing completely free and clear. .0025 shoulder bump is just snug at bottom of bolt closing, anything less than .0025 shoulder bump starts to get tight.

 

[358 WCF]

"All those kind of cartridges are around .004 or greater in diameter so they wouldn't do anything to size the base down."

I just looked at cartridge drawings & you're right... about .004 smaller for 250 & 22-250 above the extractor groove. Funny, I checked fired brass from a long gone Ruger in the 45ACP die & it falls right in, but a sized case from a Remington chamber doesn't. If you had a fatter chamber the 45 die may have solved your problem. Bummer. Max. length/min. diameter chamber & min. length/max. diameter die? Even dies from the same maker sometimes vary a few thousandths. I wonder if a small base 308/06 etc. sizing die will squeeze it down?

A call to the maker of your die set might help.

 

[cloverleaf]

Shade- I don't have the knowledge or experience to comment intelligently perhaps, but that's never stopped me before, and there are two Mausers in the safe one of which seems to have a problem similar to what you describe.

For a long time I would get frequent Hard to close cases in my 250 savage. They seemed random, to the point that a case would be hard to close, open the action, pull out the case and try it again and it would work much easier. :? Of course trying to limit the case stretch, we thought we had settled on the correct length and bump, and then it would be hard to close again. Seemingly random. Eventually, Dad grabbed the bolt from my rifle, a machinist's square, and the table of the shopsmith table saw, and realized that bolt face was not perpendicular to the bolt/ bore.
We weren't "kitchen table gunsmiths" but didn't have a lathe either.... So, dad chucked a small flat grinding stone in the horizontal drill press of the shop smith, clamped the bolt to the table of the shop smith as parallel as we could get it (Gasp- all the machinists in the room are screaming now....) and proceeded to "flatten" the bolt face. Problem 90% solved. I had just had the rifle re-blued- including the bolt, and it was immediately obvious that the bolt face had several high/ low spots. Dads Mauser is better but not perfect either.

Point is, when my bolt face wasn't flat and perpendicular to the chamber, every time the gun went off and the brass stretched, there was a point that stretched a little further some where around the circumference of the base. When the base of that same case, went in the rifle again it frequently didn't line up in the same position "on the clock" as the time before and the bolt would be hard to close.

My not be whats going in for you, but sounds familiar. Dad eventually checked it this way: mark a fired case on the follower, "top" with a sharpie as you open the bolt. Turn the case a 1/8 or 1/4 of a turn each time and close the bolt. If it gets harder to close at some point, perhaps it is because the high spot on the bolt and the most stretched point on the case have lined up. Just a thought. Those mausers were not all precision machined, and some of them have been around a while....who knows what happened to it before you had it? Some guy with a shop smith...?? :lol:

My 250 still isn't perfect (hey we "trued the bolt" on a Shop smith) but its better. I just resize until it isn't an issue and figure the brass may get a couple fewer firings. At least they chamber well. CL

 

[358 WCF]

Shade Tree,

A simple question. Do the fired cases chamber easily before sizing? If yes, then something in the sizing process is causing the problem. Maybe try sizing without the expander assy in the die? Polish the expander ball? If no, carry on with your diagnosis. A 7x64 die may be small enough in the base if you have one floating around. :shock:

 

[sako2]

Setting the die for the bump you want and lapping the bolt lugs might fix it.

 

[ShadeTree]

Shade Tree,

A simple question. Do the fired cases chamber easily before sizing? If yes, then something in the sizing process is causing the problem. Maybe try sizing without the expander assy in the die? Polish the expander ball? If no, carry on with your diagnosis. A 7x64 die may be small enough in the base if you have one floating around. :shock:

No, fired case hits a wall when the bolt is halfway closed, from there down, TIGHT. Fat chamber maybe? Same result as when I just size with a .001 or .0015 shoulder bump. Which is why I think the die is not sizing the bottom of the case quite down far enough when I try a very minimal shoulder bump.

Shoulder clearance is shoulder clearance, so it's not that. At .0025 it gets much better. At .003 it's an easy bolt close. Now keep in mind I'm starting with a shoulder well forwards of a standard 22-250 because the rifle came to me with excess headspace. At .003 shoulder bump the die is still turned up higher in the press than a standard chamber would be with the die turned up to neck size only.

Setting the die for the bump you want and lapping the bolt lugs might fix it.

That would work for a length issue due to a tight shoulder, rearward pressure on the back of the lugs from being jammed back tight with a tight cartridge that is long in the shoulder.

I have shoulder clearance, so this is a tight circumference issue at the base of the case because the die is not sizing the base if I try minimal shoulder bump. At least that's all I can figure it is.

 

[ShadeTree]

CL, this is consistent. If I bump the shoulder .003 or more I don't ever have a tight bolt close. If I bump .002 or less, I always have a tight bolt close.

 

[358 WCF]

Have you blued or Sharpied a case to see where the chamber is hitting? I'm guessing either the point where shoulder meets neck, the shoulder itself, or the pressure ring could all be culprits. Is it an older rifle? Maybe it was chambered before 22-250 was standardized? If you have a 250 Savage die it might be cut a tad smaller in the base if, in fact, the p-ring is the problem.

If all else fails contact the die maker. For the cost of one way postage RCBS & Redding have been helpful in the past. Hope they still are.

I understand your reluctance to rechamber a good shooter. The 22-250 Ackley I took in trade a long time ago has .030+ excessive headspace but single fed with properly formed brass & long seated bullets it shoots in the .2s for 5 shot groups at faster speeds than any Swift I've owned. The barrel wasn't set back before being Ackleyed. The reamer was run in to clean up the old chamber & then some more. New brass shows the ring clearly on 1st firing & separates on the 2nd firing without extraordinary means of making cases, but it works unbelievably well once the little things got figured out.

 

[sako2]

A 243 or 6mm die may work.

 

[ShadeTree]

A 243 or 6mm die may work.

243 is roughly .004 bigger, and 6mm is roughly .005 bigger, at the base of the case, so they wouldn't size the base down where it needs.

22-250 happens to sit at an oddball size down at the base. Everything is either too big where it wouldn't size it down at the base, or much smaller.


358 WCF, no I haven't marked the case to find out where it's tight, everything was pointing that it's down at the base, but that's a good idea, I'll try it. Like you I'm making an unusual sized chamber work well the way it is. This one is right at .020 headspace, based on shoulder measurements compared to unfired brass.

It's an old CZ Mauser 98 action that someone threaded an aftermarket barrel onto. No idea how old the barrel is. Heavy barrel with no manufacture stamp, just cartridge designation.

I have a 250 savage die, and the 250 savage is the exact same dimensions pretty much all the way through since it is the parent cartridge for the 22-250. Can't see I'd gain anything trying that as about the only difference I can see is the 250 savage has a .002 shallower shoulder angle.

 

[ShadeTree]

358 WCF, I took your advise and colored a fired but un-sized case to see where it was tight. I used dry erase maker which wipes off easily. You can clearly see the ring right above the web where it wiped it clean. So it's as I suspected, the die is turned up too high when set for minimal shoulder bump, and is not squeezing the bottom of the case.



In the end I'm back to square one, but I guess I'll let well enough alone. If I keep shoulder bumps at least .0025, it still doesn't stretch cases too bad and bolt closing is just snug, not tight.