Rifle accuracy issue - I am dumbfounded

[Ridge_Runner]

my money goes on it needs glass bedded, shoots better hot than cold is the first clue.
RR

 

[nshunter]

I had a similar problem with a model 700 mountain rifle in 30/06. The problems all stemmed from poor cleaning over the years. The rifle was severely copper fouled but didn't really cause major problems until I ran out of my favorite ammo and started trying other types of ammo, to see what shot the best. Well after a couple boxes of premium ammo my groups kept getting worse, as the copper fouling got worse, and was exaggerated by using boat tail bullets which the rifling can have a harder time grabbing on to. My original ammo was plain old remington core lokt. Well eventually after pulling my hair out and taking the rifle to a gunsmith it was determined that the rifle just needed a major cleaning with a strong copper remover ( took about 9 hours or cleaning to get it done). I also found out that even after being properly cleaned the rifle just wouldn't shoot boat tail bullets well. Once I switched back to a regular flat base bullet my groups were fine again.

 

[barge]

I know it's all been covered. Check the list, it's always easier with a gun with a history. If it where me I would suspect a bedding problem or scope problem. I have been through this several times and the only way I know to eliminate the scope is to replace the scope with one of known quality. All scopes are subject to fail just some more likely than others.

 

[338winmag]

Back from the range.

I mounted a brand new scope and mounts and rings.
I did not clean the rifle this time before going out from last time (I shot 8 bullets)
All screws are tight.
Checked the free floating - nothing touching; everything is good.
I am shooting flat base bullets as well but we did try different powders, primers and bullets. Always the same thing.

After getting the scope "sighted in" (shooting near the bullseye), it all was just a repeat fo the last 4 times I thought I was done. Its not the scope!

So I am going to start a new thread regarding replacement costs in the rifle section.

Thanks all
338winmag

 

[358 Winchester]

Friend gave me their Remington 700 270 Winchester to reload for this hunting season.
They told me it fired 5" groups and so I figured this would be easy to correct with a good reload.

This rifle shot groups like a shotgun. It took me about 35 rounds to find the "supposed sweet spot", or so I thought. I cleaned it up and loaded the friend 40 rounds to practice with but before giving it to him I thought I would foul the barrel for him and shoot a three shot group in a target for validation.

:shock: The group was back again shooting groups like a shotgun. I went through the whole process of trying to find the new sweet spot. Again after about 20 rounds found the new "supposed sweet spot". The rifle shot 2 3 shot groups und 3/4". I was done, or so I thought. Again I thought I would foul the barrel for him and shoot a three shot group in a target for validation.

:shock: :shock: :evil: Back to shooting like a shotgun, AGAIN! :x

So yes like a fool I went thru this process one more time and this time deliberately shot a three shot group before handing it over to the friend. Oh nooooo. Back to the same shotgun group issue. I don't get it???

In short, unless it is too late to say that... Is it possible this inexpensive Bausch and Lomb scope is the issue. The groups are consistently 2-3" with the reloaded ammo. Often the same pattern. I am going to change out the scope in the next few days but if it is the scope, how does a scope loose zero like this?

Thanks
338winmag

I would check the scope and the action screws, but I am thinking it is more of a bedding issue.
Remington rifles have a factory pressure point at the end of the wood in the barrel channel.
I have lots of Remington rifles and they always benefit with a free floating barrel. If you can't slip a bill between the barrel and wood, then as you shoot the barrel will expand and the wood will not. This will make it shoot different each time out as you have experienced.

 

[rquack]

I had similar issues severals years back with a buddy's rifle; an old Savage 110 in .270. Turned out this barrel would attract copper fouling like a magnet collects iron. After 2 boxes of ammo the groups opened up; remove copper, foul, groups back to normal 3/4" to 1".

 

[SJB358]

Steve, how are you making out with this rifle? Scotty

 

[PJGunner]

Well, my thoughts were eithe the scope or the bedding as the screws had already been checked and said to be tight.
We've eliminated the scope so it's now down to the bedding. One way to find out is remove the gun from the stock. Take an old credidit card and cut a set of shims, one to sit right behind the recoil lug and the other at the rear action tang. Replace the action (lots of fun as the shims are not too cooperative) but once you have them cinched down as the screws proper tightened, resight the rifle and see how it shoots now. If that fixes the problem, have the owner get the gun glass bedded and the barrel free floated and it should be OK.
I once had a custom Mauser in 30-06 with a very pretty piece of wood that no matter what I tried, the gun would change zero after each and every group. I use to joke that if a bird within 100 miles of that gun took a leak, the zero would change, it was that bad. It was already totally glass bedded with a free floated barrel. I drove up to Deer valley just north of Phoenix and got a synthetic stock from Mc Millan and glass bedded the gun into the stock. Now the gun is a consistant 1.0 to 1.25" grouper depending on the load and bullet used.
My Winchester M70 was also another one that gave large groups. The fellow I'd bought it from swore to me that the gun was very accurate. On that one, I had a trigger job done, glass bedded and the barrel free floated to no avail. Turned out the brand new 3X9 Leupold was bad. I replaced it with a 2X7 Leupold and the gun became a tackdriver with most loads doing .75 to 1.0".
Another thing you might try is placing a shim right at the front of the forearm. Try a layer or two of a business card as I believe Remingtons already come with a pressure point. I won't recommend free floating it as it's not your gun. The shims under te action should proove whether ot not a free float will fix things though and them you can pass that one to the owner.
It's not easy to diagnose problems on the web. Lots easier if the gun is in hand. Anyway, I hope this helped.
Paul B.

 

[338winmag]

I went the final steps and removed the muzzle brake. Still no diff. I would not think this rifle is worth a hunting trip but ..., I have run out of time and personal money to see if it is worthy. The owner is contemplating using it for this season or not. 200 yards groups are a consistent 7"-8+".

On a good note Scotty, the 338winmag is firing fantastic 5/8" groups at ------> 200 yards. Yup I kid you not. I lie not! The H4831 powder was the trick with the Accubonds. This $390 Weatherby Vanguard is one kick butt rifle. I am a happy camper.

This one group was .464 measuring outside to outside and subtracting .338. ")
I brought her down 3 clicks and I have reloaded my rounds for October 22. Now counting the days.

 

[DrMike]

Good looking group. I'd say that you have achieved hand load nirvana.

 

[nvbroncrider]

I believe you have a worn out bore. If it shoots well fouled after 20 or 30 rounds that is what it is pointing too. Once you have enough material in the bore to get a good hold on the bullet it shoots. Each gun is an individual and if it likes a dirty bore give it to her.

 

[elkeater2]

If it's down to the barrel and .270 Win is what he likes, there are always Remington take off barrels on GB, in various condition ratings from new to rusty.....this is the most economical way I know to get a decent barrel.
EE2

 

[ElmerThud]

Did you slide a piece of paper between the barrel & forend stock all the way up to the reciever/action..? if the paper slides with ease there's obviously no interference of stock to barrel and this can be ruled out.
If the paper goes tight, then there is and you may have to either take some wood out of the stock, or make up a couple of 'bedding washers' cut from a polythene bottle etc.

It's important there's no interference & the barrel should be 'free floating'.
For the few moments this will take, it's worth checking.
Cheers, ET

 

[338winmag]

Thanks all.
Yeah I did the barrel floating test. It had no resistance up and down the barrel. On a very rare occasion, the rifle shot two three shot groups that were under 1" out of 70+ rounds. You could then shoot the next round and the POI would be 4"-5" off again. I also tried the super clean, the fouled, the super fouled, the clean and fouled. It just didn't matter. The rifle was bought from a pawn shop a few years back and I am now a believer the barrel was shot out then or so close to it. The owner is a real cool guy and accepts what it is. He is deciding what to do and chances are good there is a new Weatherby Series 2 in this weeks budget.