Smokeless Powder ammo in Black Powder antique revolver?

[Guy Miner]

Question for the group. We have some very experienced handloaders here and I've not ventured into this area before.

I have a S&W First Model Double Action Revolver in 44 Russian. The gun is in good mechanical condition, though the finish is well worn and even some pitting. The last of these were made in 1913, some 50,000+ of them were made. The last frames for them were supposedly made in 1899. The 44 Russian was a black powder cartridge.

Because of Cowboy Action Shooting, the 44 Russian has made a bit of a comeback. Sometimes Starline even makes a run of brass for it. The 44 Russian got it's start in 1870. Eventually it grew into the wonderful 44 Special, which in turn gave us the magnificent 44 magnum in the 1950's. It's the old 44 Russian that gave us our .429" diameter and the same rim size as the Special and the Magnum.

Question is... This old revolver is a black powder cartridge gun... Can I safely fire wimp bubba baby smokeless loads from it?

Like 600-650 fps loads with a soft lead 240 gr bullet?

Discussion please, and Thank You! I've only used black powder in my 50 cal muzzle loading rifle. Worked great in that application.

If I had a new Uberti or Pedersoli reproduction, I wouldn't even be worried. Heck, HSM even sells "Cowboy" ammo in 44 Russian.

Regards, Guy

 

[truck driver]

I wouldn't shoot modern fast burning powder because it builds pressure fast, even wimpy loads. Should it come unlocked you would get a piece of brass flying out at your face. Ther should be loads for triple 7 or other black powder substitute powder that you could use safely.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Guy If you could find some of that Trail Boss it was made for your application. Haven't seen any for long time but maybe a good Samaritan would part with some.

 

[jimbires]

I did a little digging around . I have nothing in my manuals . I did find this ; about halfway down the page is " other models " the second paragraph is about this gun . it states northing but black powder in these old guns . the whole article would be worth reading . it talks about trail boss .

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/the-44-russian/

 

[RL338]

Guy , I load 3 different cartridges for my brother that were black powder based. 43 Spanish , 33 Dutch Beaumont , and 44-40. All 3 firearms are well over 100yrs old.
43 Spanish is loaded with 5744
43 Dutch Beaumont is also loaded with 5744
44-40 is loaded with either Trailboss or Unique
All are loaded with only modest pressure for longevity of the rifle and brass.

 

[Guy Miner]

I did a little digging around . I have nothing in my manuals . I did find this ; about halfway down the page is " other models " the second paragraph is about this gun . it states northing but black powder in these old guns . the whole article would be worth reading . it talks about trail boss .

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/the-44-russian/

I'm going to go with John Taffin: "All of the original S&W .44 Russian chambered top-breaks, whether they be single or double action, should only be used with black powder." John has a whole lot more knowledge than I do about old revolvers and loading for them.

I "think" I could come up with a nice light smokeless powder load for it, but maybe the old gun just deserves a proper diet of black powder & lead bullets. If I ever even shoot it.

RL338 - I appreciate that info and have loaded smokeless powder in an old 11.7mm Danish rolling block rifle with good results.

Thank you. Guy

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Guy I agree with you on the black powder loading. I checked my copy of Ken Water's Pet Loads. His article from July 1993 on the 44 Russian states that only black powder should be used in pistols of your age group and that he found the common load to be 23 grs FFg black powder. Something to go on.
Dan.

 

[Darkhorse]

Sure you can shoot smokeless powder in old blackpowder guns, lets try some bullseye. But for your wifes sake be sure y our life insurance is paid up.

 

[JD338]

Very cool gun Guy. I agree with your decision to stay with black powder.

JD338

 

[clearwater]

Reminds me of my Dad's old damascus barrel shotgun. First shotgun he let me shoot. Black powder 16 gauge. Nowadays I don't think they even advise firing it with BP!

My dad would use a stick to throw a #10 can into the air like a clay thrower. I would have to wait for the smoke to clear to see if there were any holes in the can.

In a way, black powder smoke is fun!

 

[clearwater]

I'm going to go with John Taffin: "All of the original S&W .44 Russian chambered top-breaks, whether they be single or double action, should only be used with black powder." John has a whole lot more knowledge than I do about old revolvers and loading for them.

I "think" I could come up with a nice light smokeless powder load for it, but maybe the old gun just deserves a proper diet of black powder & lead bullets. If I ever even shoot it.

RL338 - I appreciate that info and have loaded smokeless powder in an old 11.7mm Danish rolling block rifle with good results.

Thank you. Guy

"I "think" I could come up with a nice light smokeless powder load for it, but maybe the old gun just deserves a proper diet of black powder & lead bullets. If I ever even shoot it."

Sounds perfect for a "whiskey and pistols" weekend. Bedroll and campfire under the stars out in the central desert somewhere.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Aside from a firearm being weak or strong, new or old...the myths about smokeless vs black or unfortunate.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Reminds me of my Dad's old damascus barrel shotgun. First shotgun he let me shoot. Black powder 16 gauge. Nowadays I don't think they even advise firing it with BP!

My dad would use a stick to throw a #10 can into the air like a clay thrower. I would have to wait for the smoke to clear to see if there were any holes in the can.

In a way, black powder smoke is fun!View attachment 25206

The graph is misleading as presented. Although it is by all means correct from an "ignition-to-time burned" standpoint (for a shotgun load), it depends on what powder is used and how much is used, as well as the desired velocity to be achieved...in comparison to a given black powder charge (for a rifle or pistol cartridge).

If an original black powder charge of xxgr. is used to create 1,300fps @ 15,000cup, then replicating the 1,300fps with a smokeless powder like Bullseye will create a humongous pressure spike. If you replicate the pressure using Bullseye, then the pressure is the same, the spike may or may not exist depending on how fast the burn of that particular charge of powder...but the velocity will more than likely be slower than that achieved with the black powder charge.

If using a particular "slower" fast burning smokeless powder, then the pressures created could be actually lower than that of the black powder load...at the same velocity or even more. This is actually what can separate pistol sized rifle cartridges like the 44-40 and 38-40 from actual pistol cartridges like the 45 Colt and 44 Russian.

Thus, since this is about a 44 Russian, it may be best to not shoot smokeless powder in it at all since there is very little room for error.

 

[RL338]

I appreciate that info and have loaded smokeless powder in an old 11.7mm Danish rolling block rifle with good results.

Would like to hear about your experience with the 11.7. Here I thought I was the only loner working on old military rifles loads.

 

[Guy Miner]

Would like to hear about your experience with the 11.7. Here I thought I was the only loner working on old military rifles loads.

I'll try to put together a decent post/article about it. Been a few years since I loaded for it and shot it. Very cool old rifle.

Regards, Guy

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Here are some statements by Smith & Wesson regarding smokeless powder use as well as a dated later.

1900 - "While we do not guarantee our Revolvers when used with smokeless powder, and strongly advise against reloaded ammunition, we do not wish to detract in any way from its merits or discourage the use of properly loaded smokeless cartridges."

1905-1906 "Cartridges in which smokeless powder is used are made by leading manufacturers, and they posses valuable qualities not found in black powder ammunition. They do excellent work in our revolvers, and while we do not guarantee our arms when smokeless powder is used, and strongly advise against reloaded ammunition, we have no desire to detract from its merits or discourage its use when properly handled".

I also ran across this letter floating on the internet.

I decided to cut out the address and addressee

Sounds to me like this is a polite way of saying that their arms were safe but they pushed off any warrantees from stupid handloaders.

 

[Darkhorse]

Why would one want to? There are plenty of safe, proven powders out there to pick from.
I think this sets a dangerous precedent. These posts are available to be read by anybody out there including children and teenagers, who as we know, have only partially developed reasoning capabilities. An individual could easily decide it's safe and load up a bunch of heavy loads. It's best not to put the idea in their head to start with.

 

[RL338]

Guy , caught your 44 video on UR last night , nice work. Now I see what you were up to

 

[grry10]

Guy, So cool! Sticking with black power or something like "P" Pyrodex makes good sense.