DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 36,921
- 5,112
Twenty-five hundred is just a number, Homer. The velocities you're generating will deliver sufficient energy on impact. No game will be able to tell the difference. Very neat.
Something a bit smaller for a change...
- Thread starter HomerOz
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
So true Dr Mike.
My efforts, have more to do with finding out what this little cartridge is actually and safely capable of.
With the assistance of "Daryl S" on Nitro Express.com and also from BC, I was able to ring some quite impressive velocities out of my new Winchester M1892 lever gun, in .45 Colt.
These loads were way beyond what the book suggests (but well short of .454 Casull powder charges), and are safe (but a hand full) in this 1892.
I also put together some subsonic 7.62x39 loads, earlier today.
These are actually with the same Taipan 124grn (0.3095") and Speer 130grn (0.308") HP bullets.
What I'm trying to achieve here is, to use a conventional varmint type bullet, that is known for their rapid expansion, and then see if it will expand like a conventional hunting bullet, at Sub-Sonic velocities?
Won't know, if I don't try. So first up is a velocity test and then go from there.
Doh!
Homer
My efforts, have more to do with finding out what this little cartridge is actually and safely capable of.
With the assistance of "Daryl S" on Nitro Express.com and also from BC, I was able to ring some quite impressive velocities out of my new Winchester M1892 lever gun, in .45 Colt.
These loads were way beyond what the book suggests (but well short of .454 Casull powder charges), and are safe (but a hand full) in this 1892.
I also put together some subsonic 7.62x39 loads, earlier today.
These are actually with the same Taipan 124grn (0.3095") and Speer 130grn (0.308") HP bullets.
What I'm trying to achieve here is, to use a conventional varmint type bullet, that is known for their rapid expansion, and then see if it will expand like a conventional hunting bullet, at Sub-Sonic velocities?
Won't know, if I don't try. So first up is a velocity test and then go from there.
Doh!
Homer
- Thread starter
- #23
These are the bullets I had initally thought may be the best choices for the above mentioned Sub-Sonic expansion test.
From L to R we have Speer 0.308" 130grn HP, Hornady 0.310" 123grn Z-Max and the Taipan 0.3095" 124grn HP.
Whilst these are not great images, they at least initially, cancel out the Z-Max. The Z-Max's jacket, is a lot thicker than both the HP bullets.
When I get a chance, I'll try to mike them up.
FYI, the single best way to confirm jacket thickness, is to give the bullets a Nitric Acid bath. This completely dissolves the copper/gilding metal jacket, and leaves the lead alloy core untouched.
Also and further to Sub-Sonic bullet expansion, I just seen this elsewhere on this forum;
https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-and-ar ... c-offering
Thank You Mr Nosler!
Doh!
Homer
From L to R we have Speer 0.308" 130grn HP, Hornady 0.310" 123grn Z-Max and the Taipan 0.3095" 124grn HP.
Whilst these are not great images, they at least initially, cancel out the Z-Max. The Z-Max's jacket, is a lot thicker than both the HP bullets.
When I get a chance, I'll try to mike them up.
FYI, the single best way to confirm jacket thickness, is to give the bullets a Nitric Acid bath. This completely dissolves the copper/gilding metal jacket, and leaves the lead alloy core untouched.
Also and further to Sub-Sonic bullet expansion, I just seen this elsewhere on this forum;
https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-and-ar ... c-offering
Thank You Mr Nosler!
Doh!
Homer
- Thread starter
- #24
G'Day Fella's,
I got away bush on the weekend, and shot and chronoed some more loads for this same rifle (and some .45 Colt wheel guns).
Here are the written results (the printer on the Oehler 35"P" wont feed the paper? Another job to do......).
And some images at the range.
This one, you can see things from the bench past the sky screens to the 110meter target (top Left corner).
Bench action.
Close up on the Redhawk and Blackhawk.
And the chrono readings for both revolvers, with the same ammo.
FYI, ADI AP-70 powder, is similar to Alliant brand, "Unique" powder.
So 10.0 grns of this is a good stiff but safe load, in modern .45 Colt firearms.
-------------------------------------------------
As a follow up on this project, a mate and suppressor customer of mine, recently sent me the following information.
“The theory behind this is, these bullets are renowned .30 calibre Varmint bullets (at Super-Sonic velocities).
I’m hoping that at Sub-Sonic velocities, they will still expand but more like a conventional hunting bullet would, at 2800 ish fps?”
In rereading some literature I’d printed off the following observation was made:
Dr. Martin Fackler, founder of International Wound Ballistics Association, devoted a considerable amount of research, study and experimentation to the subject of subsonic bullets. Based on his own and other research going back 200 years, Dr. Fackler (in a nutshell) concluded that hollow points and expanding bullets are a waste of effort. One can do no better than to use a simple, hard-cast lead bullet with a totally fiat nose, and with sharp edges at the transition between the flat face and the cylinder walls. Such a bullet does not move through the air with the extreme ease of a VLD (very low drag) bullet, but its terminal effect is considerable.
and
“In terms of effectiveness on live targets, it is very hard to beat a blunt-nosed or flat-tipped bullet. Put another way, a subsonic bullet that is a true cylinder will deliver more shock, hemorrhage and trauma than any other shape. Sharply pointed and round-nosed projectiles will slip right through, while causing minimal damage. It has been said that some .30 caliber projectiles are designed to expand at 300 m/s or 1,000 fps, but this remains to be proven to my satisfaction.
Sharply pointed bullets will penetrate deeply at subsonic velocities - pushing nerve tissue and blood vessels aside, rather than cutting them. Unless the bullet hits the base of the brain or a major nerve center, the animal will run away, usually to die a slow and agonizing death. Most pointed and round-nosed .30 caliber rifle bullets are totally lacking in knockdown power at subsonic velocities. We hear the same stories of subsonic .30 caliber bullet inadequacies over and over again, and are frankly quite tired of them. Subsonic .30 caliber bullets will not expand in large animals. The only effective .30 caliber subsonic bullet will have a totally flat front end.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
Homer
I got away bush on the weekend, and shot and chronoed some more loads for this same rifle (and some .45 Colt wheel guns).
Here are the written results (the printer on the Oehler 35"P" wont feed the paper? Another job to do......).
And some images at the range.
This one, you can see things from the bench past the sky screens to the 110meter target (top Left corner).
Bench action.
Close up on the Redhawk and Blackhawk.
And the chrono readings for both revolvers, with the same ammo.
FYI, ADI AP-70 powder, is similar to Alliant brand, "Unique" powder.
So 10.0 grns of this is a good stiff but safe load, in modern .45 Colt firearms.
-------------------------------------------------
As a follow up on this project, a mate and suppressor customer of mine, recently sent me the following information.
“The theory behind this is, these bullets are renowned .30 calibre Varmint bullets (at Super-Sonic velocities).
I’m hoping that at Sub-Sonic velocities, they will still expand but more like a conventional hunting bullet would, at 2800 ish fps?”
In rereading some literature I’d printed off the following observation was made:
Dr. Martin Fackler, founder of International Wound Ballistics Association, devoted a considerable amount of research, study and experimentation to the subject of subsonic bullets. Based on his own and other research going back 200 years, Dr. Fackler (in a nutshell) concluded that hollow points and expanding bullets are a waste of effort. One can do no better than to use a simple, hard-cast lead bullet with a totally fiat nose, and with sharp edges at the transition between the flat face and the cylinder walls. Such a bullet does not move through the air with the extreme ease of a VLD (very low drag) bullet, but its terminal effect is considerable.
and
“In terms of effectiveness on live targets, it is very hard to beat a blunt-nosed or flat-tipped bullet. Put another way, a subsonic bullet that is a true cylinder will deliver more shock, hemorrhage and trauma than any other shape. Sharply pointed and round-nosed projectiles will slip right through, while causing minimal damage. It has been said that some .30 caliber projectiles are designed to expand at 300 m/s or 1,000 fps, but this remains to be proven to my satisfaction.
Sharply pointed bullets will penetrate deeply at subsonic velocities - pushing nerve tissue and blood vessels aside, rather than cutting them. Unless the bullet hits the base of the brain or a major nerve center, the animal will run away, usually to die a slow and agonizing death. Most pointed and round-nosed .30 caliber rifle bullets are totally lacking in knockdown power at subsonic velocities. We hear the same stories of subsonic .30 caliber bullet inadequacies over and over again, and are frankly quite tired of them. Subsonic .30 caliber bullets will not expand in large animals. The only effective .30 caliber subsonic bullet will have a totally flat front end.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
Homer
