TSX vs ET for whitetail

[rjm158]

I have read numerous posts concerning the use of the Barnes bullets on various game, especially bigger species such as elk. Likewise, there have been some accounts of the ET's from Nosler. I picked up a promotional DVD the other day from Barnes and they claim their bullets are better than similar ones from competitors. Their field footage is impressive but I didn't expect them to show any failures, either.

I searched but didn't find any prior posts that compared the two bullets head to head. I don't hunt elk regularly but wondered about performance on medium to large sized whitetails. I have normally used BT's or a few AB's but am open to new ideas.

I am looking for information in all calibers from 243 up through 358 since I now have a plethora of "new to me" rifles ( thanks 6mm Remington and Dr. Mike) I haven't shot at anything except paper and deer season is coming. I noticed SPS has some 140 7mm ET's and was considering them for my 7mm WSM. The recent post regarding the 8mm Rem Mag had me thinking about those TSX's from my 325 WSM.

Any input regarding accuracy, loading, and especially field performance, would be very welcome.

Thanks, Ron.

 

[Guy Miner]

A few years back I took a step away from my tried & true Noslers (partitions & ballistic tips) to try the then-new 100 gr TSX from my .25-06 mule deer rifle. Worked up an accurate load with good velocity, 3340 fps mv. Fouled the barrel rather quickly. Grumbled a little about that but not too big a deal on a hunting rifle - I rarely shoot it enough shots to matter. Push it over 20 shots without a cleaning though and accuracy was in bad shape.

Shot two mule deer bucks. Washington in '05 - no sign of expansion from the bullet. Dropped the deer, dead. But gave me some concern. Wyoming in '07 - very close range, about 30 yards - tremendous expansion and destruction through the chest cavity of the buck. Dropped him quickly too.

That one in '05 though, kept haunting me, since it didn't appear to have expanded at all. Switched to the 115 Berger VLD for a few years and three mulies. Happier with that bullet. It doesn't really foul the barrel, gets good accuracy, expands like crazy after penetrating, and drops deer real quick. However... I've got a mess of 115 gr Nosler Partitions loaded up now. Looks like I've come full circle.

For deer, I think a rapid expanding bullet, with a lead core and a conventional gilding metal jacket, is the way to go. They expand quickly, penetrate enough, and drop game fast. Before I started my messing around with Barnes and Berger I'd decided the Nosler Ballistic Tip was pretty much the perfect deer bullet. I still think so.

BTW - the fouling from the Barnes TSX is much reduced over what it was with the original Barnes bullets - but it can still be a significant problem, particularly in a rough factory bore. When I shoot them through a very smooth, hand-lapped Krieger barrel, the fouling is greatly reduced. Still, it's a solid copper bullet, and copper is softer than "gilding metal" typically used in bullet jackets. I hear the new "tipped" version of the TSX is more reliable about expanding too.

Note that Nosler's E-Tip isn't made of soft copper, but of gilding metal instead. Should foul no more than a conventional bullet, but I haven't messed with them.

OK - too much typing. Done. :grin:

Guy

 

[Gm weatherby man]

In the 243 daughter has now nocked flat 4 deer, two with the 85 tsx, two with the 80ttsx. In testing in solid dirt the 243 tsx mushroomed insteat of opening up, I switch to the 80 tssx just to make sure of emediate expansion.in the 257 bee have loads in 100 ttsx, kill quick, great wound Chanels. The old man has shot a few deer with his 270 wsm with 130 ttsx with great luck. I personally have no problem in either bullet in any caliber as long as they gave me good accuracy and speed that I required. :wink:

 

[DrMike]

I have used Barnes for many years in a variety of cartridges, just as I've used Nosler for many years. My sole caveat for any monolithic bullet is that velocity must be sufficiently high to ensure expansion. I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that at lower velocities they will kill without good expansion. Consequently, I'm comfortable using monolithics (whether Barnes TSX or Nosler ETip) in any of my WSMs or Magnums. They will do the job they were designed to do. I would not argue that one is better than the other; either works and each has brought home game for me. I can tell you that in cartridges that generate lower velocities, the Barnes is problematic for me. In these, I prefer a lead core bullet. I like the concept of the bonded core or the interior mandrel, so Partitions and AccuBonds get me nod. There is too much riding on the hunt to be concerned about bullet failure on a large deer.

 

[SJB358]

I like the TSX, taken an elk, bear and some deer with them outta my Whelen. Used the older X bullets for moose, caribou, deer and an elk. Again, they all worked fine for me. Saying that, I really find the regular PT's, AB's or BT's to be fine for me. Plus, I buy them as 2nds and don't spend quite so much money on load work and I can practice with the same bullet I am going to use for hunting.

I have not yet succumbed to shooting the ET. I almost ordered some 140gr ET's for my 7WSM, but since the 160gr AB's shoot so well and the 175's seem to be just as good, I don't see myself messing with them just yet. I have a bag of ET's for the next 257 caliber rifle I come across, but until then, I will keep with the PT's for the heavy lifting. I do like the mushroom the ET gives over the Barnes, but that is just my opinion and likes. Plus, since I am not required to mess with the all copper bullets, I will stick with lead for as long as I can. Scotty

 

[Guest]

I'm in the same camp as Dr. Mike with regard to monolithics. I'll use them in magnum rifles, but I don't like them in standard chamberings because I'm concerned about opening at lower velocities. With the new push toward lighter monolithics I think this is going to be less an issue, as I could easily see a 130gr .308cal bullet at 3200fps opening in deer where a 165gr at 2800 might not, at longer ranges.

As for the bullets themselves, I can't speak to the Barnes bullets except on paper. I've shot the original X, XLC, and the TSX/TTSX. Most accurate out of the bunch was the TTSX. All of them fouled factory bores more than I like to see. Soft copper is just not friendly when you push it at 3k fps or faster.

I've shot a bunch of E-Tips (several hundred - mostly seconds from SPS) and have two shots on game with them. Both shots were from my 270Wby, and both into the same buck. The first shot (175yds through thick woods) did not get enough of the vitals due to him angling more than I anticipated when I shot. That shot broke his left front shoulder and he dropped like a stone. I should have put one more through his ribs at that point, but I mistakenly thought he was done when he quit thrashing. Short version of the story is that he jumped and hobbled out onto a point when I went to get him, and I decided to leave him overnight rather than try to track him in the dark and push him off the mountain. Came back the next morning and found him bobble-heading under some cedars, and finished him with a single shot from 25yds.

Now, my observations after the fact are these:

• The first shot impacted at about 3000fps, and penetrated about 8" through the buck
• First shot mushroomed to just over half and inch at exit, based on the exit wound
• Second shot impacted at approximately 3400fps, entered right at the base of the neck and rode down the right side of his spine and exited just to the right side of the base of his tail
• Second shot penetrated over 4' of heavy bone and muscle, and had an identical exit wound of approximately half an inch

So the bullet performs well at high velocities. The bullet will expand rapidly to a size about twice that of the nominal bullet diameter, doing so within the first 8" of penetration, and holding together for lengthy penetration through heavy bone and muscle.

Now, I'm convinced that the first shot, had I had a little better shot opportunity, would have been a "one shot, one kill" situation. Due to the thickness of the woods I was in, I took the only shot that presented itself during the 45min I watched the buck working along the ridgeline opposite my stand. Would I use E-Tips again? Absolutely. I've got a bunch loaded up for my 270Wby for this season, and I'm working up a load for my 300Wby with the 180gr E-Tip. But I won't be trying the 180gr E-Tip in my 8x57, nor will I try the 168gr E-Tip in my 30-06. In those two rifles, I'm using Ballistic Tips of the same weights as the E-Tips mentioned, respectively. I might use the 90gr E-Tip in my 243Win, but since I like that rifle for coyotes and deer, I am inclined to go with a lead core bullet like a Partition or AccuBond.

If Nosler brought out E-Tips in lighter weights (something similar to the 160gr TTSX now offered in .323cal for my 8x57) I'd consider them. I won't use the TTSX in that 8x57 because the bore is rough and prone to fouling with gilding metal jackets. I can only imagine how quickly it would foul with solid copper.

I hope this is helpful information. If you're shooting a magnum, I wouldn't hesitate using the E-Tips on white-tails. If you're shooting standard chamberings, I'd stick to traditional lead core stuff, either cup/core or bonded, whichever is most accurate in your particular rifle.

 

[rjm158]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Guy, the info concerning the 25-06 was something I was especially interested in since this has been my go-to round for many years. I like experimenting with calibers on the range, but will only take a rifle into the field if I'm convinced my load is a viable one.

Truth be told, it was going to take something very convincing to move me away from the BT's and AB's since their performance has been stellar to this point. I have also acquired some PT's for some of my calibers but haven't yet shot anything with them apart from saber-toothed paper targets.

Ron

 

[SJB358]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Guy, the info concerning the 25-06 was something I was especially interested in since this has been my go-to round for many years. I like experimenting with calibers on the range, but will only take a rifle into the field if I'm convinced my load is a viable one.

Truth be told, it was going to take something very convincing to move me away from the BT's and AB's since their performance has been stellar to this point. I have also acquired some PT's for some of my calibers but haven't yet shot anything with them apart from saber-toothed paper targets.

Ron

I hate saying this, but, I could hunt happily with all the bullets Nosler offers. They all seem to shoot well in my rifle and they work. Can't ask for much more. The AB's are growing on me a little, but the PT's are really still number 1 to me. Scotty

 

[Guy Miner]

I could have written that Scotty.

After all these years Partitions are still my number one hunting bullet. Accubonds are new to me and I like what I see so far. Ballistic Tips have long been a favorite for deer-sized critters, as were their predecessors the Solid Base bullets from Nosler.

Really believe that Nosler makes awesome bullets for most any hunting situation.

Guy

 

[STW]

I have taken a number of whitetail, mule deer,elk, moose and three black bears with the TTSX.For deer size game I load the 120 ttsx with 82. grs imr 4831 in a 7STW. Performance has been great for larger game I load the 140 ttsx. I have also used the 140 gr Nosler ballistic tips on whitetail and mule deer with great results as well. In 2010 I used the 120 ttsx to take this large black bear at 65 yards with the STW. The bear went 22'' official B&C and weighed 604 lbs. on a certified scale.I believe this was the 3rd largest B&C bear taken in North America in 2010. I think either bullet will work fine for you.

 

[DrMike]

STW,

Fine bear and a good testimony of the effectiveness of the monolithic bullets on large game. Thanks for sharing.

 

[YoteSmoker]

In my experience, I've not had to track deer very far with a range of bullets. It's the shot placement that matters most. I've seen first hand or shot deer with the following combos where the deer didn't go more than 10 feet with Ballistic Tips, Partitions, AccuBond, and TSX. I shot a bobcat this year with a 140 TTSX out of 7mm08 which worked perfect but not big game experience with it yet, go figure.

 

[onesonek]

I can't add much to what has been said. I also don't have a great deal of experience with them in the field, and truely appreicate those that have posted their experience's here. I do however have some with original X, but none with the ET as of yet. For my thoughts however, I believe the mono's have gained quite a bit in reliability in the last few years. But is just a suposition on my part from hearing and reading reports.
Personally, where I think the mono's really shine, is with their weight retention. This allowing for less weight initially, lowering recoil somewhat and maintain penetration qualities. I also think they would be ideal in .243/6mm chamberings, where the conventional lead core's heaviest typical weight is a tad light for my taste, but while light to start, the weight retention of the mono will compensate for more then the conventional's losses.

As for the comparision of the ET vs TSX, I can just say, I prefer the ET's design. Barnes with the X, forefronted the technology,,,,But
I feel Randy and his team went the wrong direction with grooves in the TSX, to help reduce the pressure issues that came with the X's long bearing surface, which inherently reduced muzzle velocity, and also to alieviate some of the fouling issues. In doing so, they really took away the higher BC of the X, which I believe generated as much sales as the weight retention. I think they should have stayed with the X profile, and spent more time on R&D of the alloy used. None the less, I believe the TSX and TTSX are still very good, I would just prefer the ET's design as mentioned. While it is darn near impossible to get same velocity from the same weight as a C&C due to the longer bearing surface of the mono's no matter what alloy is used. I think Nosler, had or took the time to get the mono technology closer to right, if not actually perfecting it. Just my opinions of course! My opinions as those are, NPT is still my "go to" bullet.

 

[Gm weatherby man]

I have gone through ballistic charts over and over, and any amount of bc lost due to barnes ttsx rings have little or no effective loss in effective range compared to the e/tip witch is usually loaded at a lower fps due to it's larger bearing surface. This I find true in most ranges that most of us would shoot game.reminded me of a segment on myth buster how a truck was more fuel efficient with tailgate up than down. It goes to show a guy that what he might beleave to be right is not always right, not tested with out buyas or just because dad said so. :wink: Don't get me wrong I plan to load and hunt with the e-tip

 

[FOTIS]

STW

What a bruin! wow!
:shock:

 

[Guy Miner]

Yes, that thing is huge! Quite a bear.

'Course I still don't think we "need" a mono-metal bullet for deer - in fact I think a good jacketed soft point is a better choice...

 

[300 H&H]

Yes, that thing is huge! Quite a bear.

'Course I still don't think we "need" a mono-metal bullet for deer - in fact I think a good jacketed soft point is a better choice...

I know what you are saying Guy. But you know in the future our State is going to make us use lead free bullets soon. Then we will have to use the mon-metal bullets to hunt with. That worrys me because I like shooting heavy bullets for elk in my 30cal. rifle and the way it sound you use the lighter bullet weight for enough velosity to have reliable expansion.

 

[barthowes]

I'm a huge fan of barnes TTSX. The 168gr with my 30-06 is hard to beat. sub moa accuracy. I've shot a moose and some whitetail here in VT. Have never had a failure to expand.

 

[onesonek]

="Gm weatherby man"]I have gone through ballistic charts over and over, and any amount of bc lost due to barnes ttsx rings have little or no effective loss in effective range compared to the e/tip witch is usually loaded at a lower fps due to it's larger bearing surface.

This is true in my mind mind as well, even though I haven't run the numbers on the ballistic program, I would agree from experience of running time trials of my own.
My point was however, that buyers were a little concerned with the velocity loss on the original X due to relating to higher pressures of the long bearing surface. That and fouling was the main reason for the TSX developement. And so, the higher velocity negated the BC loss from the X. While I agree BC's of hunting bullet at what I call normal ranges, have little consequence also. But high BC's do sell bullets, warrented or not. Personally I feel BC is overated in a hunting bullet, as high BC's really don't help much until at extreme ranges,,,But they sell bullets. And boatails are in the same boat, (no pun intended).

This I find true in most ranges that most of us would shoot game.reminded me of a segment on myth buster how a truck was more fuel efficient with tailgate up than down. It goes to show a guy that what he might beleave to be right is not always right, not tested with out buyas or just because dad said so. :wink: Don't get me wrong I plan to load and hunt with the e-tip

And if you are going strictly off published ballistic charts, and believe them to be right or true,,,go shoot some time trials for both speed retention and bullet drop. Then use a good ballistic program where you can input your numbers to get the actual BC , it may suprise you.
I very rarely do such for hunting loads however, but on my long range target/varmint loads, I want to know. With a good program, where you can plug in the drag function correction from published figures, one can get close to actual, but shooting is the only way to see or confirm.
But again I agree, at normal hunting ranges it would matter little.