VLD Bullets for Hunting

[JD338]

I know this can be a touchy subject for some but I wanted to pass along an interesting thread from another forum on the performance of a VLD "game" bullet on a bear.
The VLD's are very high BC bullets that offer very long range performance with higher retained velocity and flatter trajectories but IMHO, they are still target bullets. They do not offer any kind of "controlled expansion".
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... ort-31392/

I am by no means an expert on bears but I have taken 3 black bears, all with Nosler partitions. Always a quick kill with a nice exit wound. :wink:

JD338

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Don't expect to see me shooting an elk with them anytime soon.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

The idea is to use heavier for caliber bullets in preferably 7mm, 30 or 338 caliber. Used within there parameters they can work great. They can also fail miserably when not used in the right parameters...

I've used them off and on for the last few years in a couple calibers 25-06, 7mm RM, 300 RUM to take coyotes,deer, black bear, and elk, and found performance to be OK. The biggest problem was always consistency of how the bullet performed. Sometimes it showed good expansion, somtimes to much. Sometimes it showed good penetration, sometimes they didnt. I never did lose an animal, but there were a couple times where I thought I definately wasn't going to find them...

The only target bullet I"m using anymore is the big 300g SMK out of the 338 EDGE. With smaller calibers, Im going with designated "hunting" bullets from now on.

On a sidenote, my 2 Oregon record book animals were taken with a single target bullet, a 145" 4x4 whitetail was taken with a 25-06 and 125g ULD RBBT Wildcat bullet at 440 yards, 1 shot. And my 18 15/16 black bear was taken at about 250 yards with the 200g SMK out of a 300 RUM. Both rest on my wall so they obviously cant complain about which bullet killed them...

 

[JD338]

Remingtonman,

Good points for sure. I am actually surprised that the 30 cal 210 gr bullet didn't even make it to the hide on the off side. I know that you, and many others have had really good success with some of the VLD bullets. Again, my only concern about using them on game is that there is no controlled expansion and penetration will be effected by this.
It seems to me that the Nosler AB is the best long range bullet out there for on game performance.

I sure would like to here more about your 338 Edge. Nosler will have the 338 cal 250 gr AB out very soon. Will make for one awesome bullet in your 338 Edge.

JD338

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I cant say I"m not surprised it didn't make it to the offside hide at that range. Bergers are really soft and explode quite a bit. There better off being used at about 300 yards on out in my experience.

Do you have an idea what the BC will be for the 250g AB?

The BC for the 300g SMK is roughly .770, which is very very hard to beat.

Our 338 EDGE is based off my dads old Rem 700 LSS in 300 RUM. We drove it up to Shawn Carlock of Defensive Edge who is pretty much the founder of the 338 EDGE. He has built quite a few of these rifles with HART barrels and they seem to just flat out shoot to 1500 yards. They are based off the 300 RUM case and simply necked up to .338" with no other changes. With a 30" bbl, velocity with the 300g SMK is about 2850-2900fps, with a BC of .770 you get the idea of how capable this rifle is for long range. We wanted the rifle to still be packable since being we hunt some pretty steep stuff for elk/bears. We went with a 28" Stainless/fluted HART barrel, sendero countour, plus DE brake makes it about 30". We kept the LSS stock for now due to funds, but plan to put a HS precision with adj. cheepiece on in the near future. We also kept the stock trigger, but had Shawn rework it down to about 1 3/4 lbs that breaks like glass, unbelievable for a factory REM trigger...As for mounts, we are using Leupolds version of weaver style cross slot, but they are constructed of steel, so there pretty sturdy. The scope is a Leupold VX3 6.5-20x50 LR, 30 mm tube, w/ fine duplex. The scope rounds out the package very nicely IMO and works great so far. We also have the ACI inclometer for uphill/downhill shots. Also have the level indicator as well. The rifle weighs about 13.5 lbs ready to go with bipod. It still kicks a fair amount even with the brake and the weight of the rifle. The next one will weigh around 15-16 to allow shooter to spot hits a lot more easily.

As for load development, its the standard load of 92g H-1000, 300g SMK, R-P case, CCI 250, seat to max OAL of 3.780"

This load shoots 1/2" MOA @ 2830fps.

This load hits very hard at 1K. It ripped my 10"x10" gong right off my stand on the first hit. Need to think of something a bit different for this beast!

I haven't got a chance to use it on anything yet, but I did draw a deer tag and hopefully I"ll find a fall bear to use it on as well. Hopefully will have someone along video taping the hunts. Cant wait to whack something with that 300g bullet...

Anyways, I need to be getting some trigger time this summer to get ready for hunting season so I'll probly have some reports on how its shooting at longer range here in a couple weeks. Its been so damn windy here this spring/summer its unbelievable.

Here is the only load development for the rifle. Shot off bi-pod at 100y.

This was the first attempt at 1000 yards. This steel plate is only 10"x10". First 2 shots missed just barely missed the edge to the left and right. The 3rd shot rang true with an almost direct dead center hit. It was about 2" high of dead center. All 3 shots would have easily killed a deer, black bear, or elk.

 

[JD338]

Thats Awesome Remingtonman!

I'm leaning towards a 338 O'Brien, which is a 338 Edge AI. 250 gr PT @ 3250 fps from a 26" tube.

The 338 cal 250 gr AB will have a BC of .575.

JD338

 

[OU812]

Thats Awesome Remingtonman!

I'm leaning towards a 338 O'Brien, which is a 338 Edge AI. 250 gr PT @ 3250 fps from a 26" tube.

The 338 cal 250 gr AB will have a BC of .575.

JD338

Me too, as soon as my barrel gets here.

 

[buckfever]

Wow thats a nice rifle and it sounds like alot of to shootthanks for sharing it with as.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

That 338 O'Brien sounds like a real sweet set-up. Getting that kind of performance with only a 26" bbl is awesome!!

Hmm only .575 from a plastic tipped 250g bullet? Thats not all that great IMO when the 225g is .550. Was hoping for maybe around .625.

Anyways, here is some more pics of the 338 EDGE. Little more up close and detail.

Here you can see the angle indicator and the scope level

338 EDGE

 

[FOTIS]

SMK's are high BC!
They are accurate!
They are slick and sexy!
Easy to find a load with!
However ....... (hmmmm! how can I put this without sounding prejudiced?......)

they are unpredictable on game so I will not use them, on game.

Is the aforementioned gentle enough? :lol:

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Nice Rig Rem Man.
That O'brian sounds interesting.
Wonder how fast it would smoke a 200gr AB?

 

[JD338]

Nice Rig Rem Man.
That O'brian sounds interesting.
Wonder how fast it would smoke a 200gr AB?

I was told a 225 gr @ 3500 fps and a 185 gr TSX @ 3600 fps. Thats smoke'n.

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

Nice Rig Rem Man.
That O'brian sounds interesting.
Wonder how fast it would smoke a 200gr AB?

I was told a 225 gr @ 3500 fps and a 185 gr TSX @ 3600 fps. Thats smoke'n.

JD338

FYI for comparison......










Cartridge : .338-378 Weath. Mag.
Bullet : .338, 185, Barnes 'TSX' BT 33843
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.750 inch or 95.25 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 62840 psi, or 433 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

151 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570 102.6 128.1 8.30 3493 97.3 62840 15654 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218 105.0 132.5 8.59 3451 97.0 59049 15777 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 94.3 114.2 7.40 3440 99.3 62840 14270 1.163 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 97.1 122.5 7.94 3433 99.8 62840 13939 1.164 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 98.7 113.6 7.36 3433 99.6 62840 13855 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 93.4 113.6 7.36 3433 99.6 62840 13855 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 101.8 120.6 7.81 3432 99.8 62840 14156 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 96.9 122.6 7.94 3432 99.8 62840 13927 1.164 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 92.4 114.3 7.40 3431 100.0 62840 13708 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 96.8 122.4 7.93 3430 99.9 62840 13897 1.164 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 94.5 119.0 7.71 3426 98.6 62840 14372 1.173 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 99.7 117.5 7.61 3425 100.0 62840 13162 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 94.6 113.2 7.34 3422 99.6 62840 13751 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 98.3 120.9 7.83 3419 99.8 62840 13526 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 103.4 121.1 7.85 3416 99.8 62840 13487 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 94.6 113.3 7.34 3410 99.9 62840 13637 1.168 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 94.6 113.3 7.34 3410 99.9 62840 13637 1.168 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 94.6 113.3 7.34 3410 99.9 62840 13637 1.168 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 97.2 113.9 7.38 3409 99.9 62840 13656 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 105.0 125.1 8.10 3405 100.0 59016 13709 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 96.1 113.0 7.32 3386 99.3 62840 13469 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 91.8 108.2 7.01 3383 99.9 62840 13066 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 92.2 109.3 7.08 3377 99.9 62840 13104 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 92.9 110.1 7.13 3370 99.9 62840 13009 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41 105.0 132.5 8.59 3361 91.9 61763 14165 1.167 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 98.3 113.1 7.33 3359 98.9 62840 13141 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 94.5 113.1 7.33 3359 98.9 62840 13141 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 90.6 107.3 6.95 3358 99.8 62840 12840 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 90.6 107.3 6.95 3358 99.8 62840 12840 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 92.5 105.0 6.80 3353 99.6 62840 12812 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 91.7 107.0 6.94 3335 99.5 62840 12630 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 94.7 107.5 6.96 3335 100.0 62840 12223 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 92.3 110.5 7.16 3331 100.0 62840 12461 1.179 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 90.4 102.5 6.64 3329 100.0 62840 12035 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870 105.0 128.4 8.32 3326 97.4 55061 14671 1.249 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 97.2 113.9 7.38 3314 100.0 62840 12195 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 97.8 111.0 7.20 3313 99.5 62840 12374 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 100.2 112.3 7.27 3303 100.0 62840 12008 1.198 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170 105.0 123.0 7.97 3293 95.5 60660 13334 1.201 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869 105.0 132.5 8.59 3287 95.5 54391 14312 1.245 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG 105.0 126.3 8.18 3147 84.2 51265 13408 1.283
SNPE Vectan SP 13 105.0 127.1 8.24 3092 92.6 48206 13017 1.329

 

[Savage99]

I have switched some of my rifles over to Berger's VLD bullets for deer hunting. So far I have shot two deer with VLD's and the results were excellent.

Below is a doe hit at 315 yds with a 168 VLD from my 7mm WSM. This is a very accurate bullet.

 

[bullet]

I never have been the proponent of match bullets for hunting and I kept telling folks that they would not be a safe bullet on dangerous or even large game. Now the bear died but if it he had not the hunter could have been in trouble or the bear run off and the hunter not able to track the bear. Mine is going to be like I have always believed and that is I will not use them. I don't care how long or how good they have been they will fail and more than likely when you wish they had not failed or when some record deer or other game of a life time gets away. I will use the TSX's or Partitions.

 

[jtoews80]

Sweet 338!!! Now about those 300 grn AB's :grin: :grin: :grin:
What rate of twist does it have to use those long, 300 grn bullets?

CC.

 

[Desert Fox]

Sweet 338!!! Now about those 300 grn AB's :grin: :grin: :grin:
What rate of twist does it have to use those long, 300 grn bullets?

CC.

10" twist will be the minimum for 300 grainer. 9.25" is even better. My SSG 338 Lapua Improved has 9.25 twist Broughton 5C is extremely accurate with bullet ranging from 200 to 300 grainer.

Here's the 3 shot group with the 250 grain SMK @ 100 yards during load developement.

Here's the 300 SMK's 5 shot group @ 225 yards

The Rifle

Here's what 1,870 yards look like thru' the IOR set at 18X if you care to shoot that far with this rig, which is do-able with 300 SMK.

Here's the comparison of the regular 338 Lapua and the improved version

Size comparison with the 223 both in the regular and improved version.

 

[JD338]

Desert Fox

Beautiful rifle. She is a shooter, 100 yd group is .179" c/c.
Those 300 gr SMKs are impressive on paper. 8)

JD338

 

[Guy Miner]

Haven't used the VLD's for hunting yet - but am interested in all the buzz about them being a really good deer bullet. I've worked up a couple of good shooting loads, one for the .25-06 and one for the .300 WSM, and will likely try them on mule deer this fall.

So far in testing they remind me quite a bit of the Nosler Ballistic tip - accurate, with rapid expansion.

Remingtonman - thanks for all the good info!

Guy

 

[Desert Fox]

Desert Fox

Beautiful rifle. She is a shooter, 100 yd group is .179" c/c.
Those 300 gr SMKs are impressive on paper. 8)

JD338

Nathan Dagley knows how to build an accurate rifle. I was really impressed with this one. While waiting for the 338 to cool off, I fired this 3 shot group at the bottom of the orange target with my Gruning Precision built 308. It beat the 338 by a hairline.

Here's the 308 3 shot group, @100 yards (155 grain Lapua Scenar)