was this call just by CO

boolit

Handloader
Oct 21, 2010
258
0
Story from another site....


So are you an ethical hunter. You make a mistake. Not enough points, doe by mistake whatever. Do you risk getting charged by a over zelous CO or walk away?


I'll start. I was in Wyoming in 2001 on a guided white tail hunt. Half dozen does, an eight point buck and another ten point buck were in the field. I liked the eight over the ten and took a 300+ shot on a the big eight. He went down like a ton of bricks.. I took my eyes off the deer for a second and my guide said he was up and running. He ran to a barb wired fence and was just about to jump over when my guide shouted shoot him again, shoot him again, so I very quickly shot him. Once again dropped like a ton of bricks.

After the high fives we walked over to the fence where a 10 point deer lie dead, not the one I originally shot. We walked over to my first shot where the 8 point from my first shot lie dead.

So here we are in the middle of nowhere with two dead bucks and only one tag. No one else around for miles.

After some discussion the guide drove to get cell reception and call the CO to report the incident.

When he arrived we explained what happened and he calmly said "no problem boys" He told the guide to go gut the two deer and bring them up to his truck as he wrote me out a $450.00 summons for shooting two deer.

He said I needed to give him the money that night and if I couldn't I would have to spend the night in lockup. I asked him if I was in the twilight zone and he got in my face and replied "NO, YOU ARE NOT IN THE TWILIGHT ZONE YOU ARE IN MY STATE OF WYOMING WHERE YOU SHOT TWO OF MY DEER AND IF YOU DON'T COME UP WITH THE MONEY YOU STAY IN LOCKUP UNTIL WE GET IT"

True story..

After reading this, what would you have done? What would you do?
__________________
 
Tell Outfitter that he needs to pony up the money as it was his idiot guide that told you to shoot again. Then go beat the guide's......ummmm well you know.
 
Guide is at fault, piss poor job of coaching the client. Should have been doing a better job of spotting with good binoculars and would have seen the response of the first deer fired upon and would have known the deer was down. This hunter was set up from the start. The Guide should be fired by the Outfitter if an employee. An ethical Outfitter should buck up and pay the fine, back his client. Last resort pay the cost of the fine, deduct it from any tip or balance due at end of the hunt.
 
Of course, we have only one side of the story...

The other side might be something like this:

"I had this well-heeled hunter, not much experience, but seemed okay. Real proud of his custom whiz-bang magnum. We hunted hard, and finally found two great bucks, a terrific 4x4 and a good 5x5 (we're talking Wyoming right? They don't generally talk in terms of "8 point" or "10 point" deer there). The hunter pops the big 4x4, gets all excited, hopping around and everything, giving high fives, then sees the 5x5 running hard for the fence and blasts it too.

After we look, we find two deer down. He hammered both of them pretty good, but took two deer. I called the game warden and my hunter got all in the guy's face, acting like a jerk. The game warden threatened to lock him up until my hunter paid the fine out of pocket. Now he wants me to cover the cost of the fine for him. BS I say. What is your input? I mean, he pulled the trigger, all I did was get him to the meadow and show him the deer. He was mighty fast on the trigger with that second deer. Probably figured I had a tag for it, to cover him."


Years of investigation lead me to believe that there is almost always a second view of an incident, worth investigating. FWIW, Guy
 
Read my post "When they dont go down". It is a heart sick feeling when two deer are down. Fortunately for me, "party hunting" is legal in Mn and allowed me to legally tag and keep both deer. BUT we had to put my wife's uncle's tag on it. At 80 he dosent have a whole lot more hunts left. I will always feel like I cheated him out of an opportunity.
That said, If you called the CO you did the right thing. Better a clear conscience and an empty wallet. I hope I would have as much integrity. As to wether or not or who should pay the fine. I can only venture that I was responsible for both my shots, in the end no matter what. I can see the point, but its still my finger on ther trigger. If you really start thinking about the implications, some times I am scared to pick up the rifle. That is as it should be IMHO. CL
 
If you hunt long enough, it is almost inevitable that there will be a time when you violate the game laws of your province or state. In such instance, it is a mark of manliness to accept responsibility and do the right thing. The reaction of a CO is immaterial to accepting responsibility for your own actions. Four hundred fifty dollars seems a cheap price for a clear conscience because a person knows they did right. Guy's point is well taken. I know from interaction with the local COs, that they seldom act capriciously or unjustly in dealing with honest mistakes in the field. There may be a lot of anecdotal stories of injustice; but the evidence is pretty thin.
 
HHmmm.

Hard to say how one would individually act regarding the shot.. Would like to say that I would confirm before I pulled the trigger again. But we all now what adrenaline can do to a person, especially when faced with a nice buck and someone hollering at you to shoot em again...

Regarding the CO, yes today without a moment of hesitation, I would call to report myself. No I would not have insulted him & his area (twilight zone comment, but back in 81, I probably would have said that and much more.. :oops: ).

Laws and regulations apply to all and they are there for a reason..... But working in the regulation field myself, there are always aggravating circumstances & mitigating circumstances to take into consideration along with many other factors....

However, ethics is a learned trait, your either raised with good/high ethical standards or if not, hopefully you will eventually see the error of your ways. Growing up where I when I did, I was raised with high moral's & ethics. At the sametime, I was raised on a farm in a remote area where had that occurred 30 yrs ago, in all honesty, that extra deer would have been tossed into the back of the truck along with the other and hauled back to the farm quickly & quietly. A mistake was made and my Dad & Grandpa would have me pay for my mistake in other ways, taken rifle away, extra chores, etc.... At that time, it would have been considered far more of an ethical wrong to waste that extra animal by letting the CO take it for evidence than to simply take it home and cut it up.

Comments???

Just being honest..

Rod
 
I'll put it to you this way.... he dropped the first deer... and that deer would be worth tracking... and worth not having the fine for the second. I hear stories where a guide went around a deer to cut it off.. there are alternatives to get your quarrey. I can't believe a 9 inch radius to shoot at to kill a critter is that difficult to shoot at another one, ESPECIALLY with these over potent mags these guys swear by.

Although my pastor shot a buck, and dropped him and a second buck popped up from the same laurel bush, dropped him too... he said he thought he missed... a guy from the drive used his tag for the second buck, Hey stuff happens. 450 bucks is a bit steep for a mistake kill. But its more than a mistake here, it was careless.
 
A good friend of mine had this happen to him a couple weeks ago. He and his wife were elk hunting in NM and there was a group of three bulls. The wife couldn't get on the biggest bull so my buddy took the 200 yd shot. The 6 pt bull gave no reaction to the shot from the 300 Win Mag and then they all started to run. The guide told him he missed. Another bull, a big 5 pt stopped and my buddy shot and dropped him in his tracks.
(My buddy is an excellent shot out to 500 yds and has taken several elk over the years with this very outfitter so he has a proven track record with him).

The next day they went out to fill the wife's tag and they spotted the first bull laying dead just off the road. Perfect lung shot. They put the wife's tag on the 6 pt and took the horns as the meat was bad.
Needless, they both were disappointed and he is kicking himself that they didn't follow up on the "missed him" shot.

In my opinion, the guide really screwed up! Isn't that part of the reason why you pay a guide?

JD338
 
In my opinion, the guide really screwed up! Isn't that part of the reason why you pay a guide?

Ah.... Yeeeaah. :shock:

The guide should have known better....
 
To me that is all on the guide. I can see it differently if you didn't have one and you made the choice to shoot the second one for any reason. When a guy is in the heat of things, and you have a guide (that you are trusting to make good judgement) telling you to shoot, you do it! On some hunts not shooting could cost somebody their life.

I have had a few meeting with some game cops, and on all but one instace they were A holes. FYI, that buck would have cost you $800 in Oregon.
 
JD338,
I side with you, My whole point exactly when hiring a Guide/Outfitter. I know of some good Outfitters in Colorado. They all want repeat business as well as referrals for new business, all the reason to give clients the best experience possible. It's not the case in this instance.

Don
 
My buddy is a well season hunter with a lot of big game experience under his belt. 5 moose, 1 is B&C, Grizzly bear, 5-6 bull elk, he was surprised the bull didn't drop at the shot like the rest have from precision shot placement. When the guide says, "You missed him", what do ya do?

If my buddy would have refused to tag the bull, who know how it would have turned out.
A real sucky deal from my point of view.

JD338
 
I agree with JD. When you hire a guide you are trusting him to help you get on game and have a successful hunt. If he is telling you to shoot again or you missed that is on him. Also something not mentioned yet and that I find somewhat amazing is this. So you as the hunter/shooter are taking a 200 yard shot on an animal. You fire and may or may not be able to follow the bullet or see the impact due to recoil, excitement or even trying to load another round. Your guide on the other hand should at least be using his binos or spotting scope and have a clear view of the animal and should be able to see if the animal was hit or not. I know there are exceptions to this but its far easier to see a hit through binos that through a recoiling scope IMO.
 
CAhunter":19snvyrt said:
I agree with JD. When you hire a guide you are trusting him to help you get on game and have a successful hunt. If he is telling you to shoot again or you missed that is on him. Also something not mentioned yet and that I find somewhat amazing is this. So you as the hunter/shooter are taking a 200 yard shot on an animal. You fire and may or may not be able to follow the bullet or see the impact due to recoil, excitement or even trying to load another round. Your guide on the other hand should at least be using his binos or spotting scope and have a clear view of the animal and should be able to see if the animal was hit or not. I know there are exceptions to this but its far easier to see a hit through binos that through a recoiling scope IMO.

Hell, stay away fom those super magnums. The hunter is just as responsible.
 
In the first case, I think the guide was at fault. You rely on the guide for his experience and advice. It’s part of his duty. But, I can understand how things can happen. You hear stories of things that happened to others and when put in similar circumstances you think “what if”. You try to learn from them. When I shot my first bull, I was with a guide and we walked into a herd of elk. They were in a corner of a field after first light. They were about 150 yards out, downhill from us. I had a canopy of brush I had to look under. I scanned looking for a legal bull. I found one and put the gun up, but he had cows in front of him. I waited until they moved and shot. When I shot, I saw him drop through the scope. I lost sight of him due to the hill and all the cows. He was on the back side below the crest. The elk ran to the middle of the field. The guide stated the bull is over there, explaining where he was in the group. I told him I saw the bull drop when I shot and that must be another bull. He asked if I was sure, which I said yes I saw him drop. He said he did not see when I had shot due looking for a legal bull in the herd. There was a spike and another bull. So we watched as they made their way going up the mountain. We then walked over to where I shot, but you could not see anything in the field. We then started walking down to the location. As we got closer, we could see that he was down on the back side of the hill where we could not see him from the angle where I had shot. That was the second year that I hunted with the guide. I would still use him if I did a guided hunt there again. As good as you are, sometimes things happen. Try to learn from experiences of others
 
Billbam,
That's a great experience you shared, good thoughts and insights too.
 
This is a tough one, I really think the primary responsibility lies with the hunter, I think the point has been made that perhaps the guide was also at fault but he who pulls the trigger is ultimately to blame. I am really warefull when exposed to that situation, with or without a guide. I have seen one hunter kill two elk, and at various times helped hunters find elk that they thought they had "missed". Its really hard when you have elk cows in the timber or brushy area. I have an iron clad rule if you/I shoot and loose sight of "that" animal for an instant, no second shot is fired until the first shot is followed up. That rule has saved me from at best embarrassment at least a couple of times. Them big old buckskin deer all look alike trotting across the hillside, and most states don't allow you more than one tag! You must always follow up your shot with a good look before hunting any more, elk, even cows can absorb an almost unbelievable amount of lead and still keep moving. Nuff said
 
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