What is "reasonable" accuracy for a hunting rifle?

[Cowboy307]

Hello, Nosler Reloading Forum Members:
I've spent the past two days shooting my Browning A-bolt in 7mm RM. I recently had this rifle's barrel hand lapped, the Bell & Carlson stock is glass bedded, and the barrel is free floated. I went through four different boxes of ammo: Federal Premium 155 grain Terminal Ascent (3 inch, 5-shot groups, ammo not shown in the picture); Winchester 160 grain AccuBond CT (3 inch, 5-shot groups); Hornady 162 grain, ELD-X (2.5 inch, 5-shot groups); and Barnes 150 grain TTSX (1.75 inch, 5-shot groups - see the attached picture). So my rifle favors the Barnes bullet. I'm a bit disappointed in the accuracy I'm getting from this particular hunting rifle, which I'm considering taking on an elk hunt this fall. My assumption is that the group sizes I'm seeing are probably about as small as they're going to get. I keep asking myself, is this accuracy good enough to conscientiously take this rifle elk hunting? My strong suspicion is that there aren't nearly as many hunting rifles that are true, all day1 MOA rifles as the internet forums and YouTube would have us believe. For those of us who shoot 7mm RM, do my results look "typical" to you? Or are my expectations/hope for better "factory ammo" accuracy unrealistic?
Thanks in advance,
Cowboy307

 

[Blkram]

There could be a number of reasons why this rifle isn't shooting to your expectations:

• All of the bullets you have tried are longer, higher BC bullets that your rifle may just not shoot as well as a a regular cup and core bullet such as a Nosler Partition, Sierra GameKing, or Hornady Interlock. (While the ELD-X is a cup and core bullet, it is a high BC bullet of long profile similar to the others.)
  • Or your rifle may prefer bullets with a flat base such as the Sierra Pro-Hunter, Speer Grand Slam, Swift A-Frame, or Nosler Partition; Pick up a couple of boxes of ammo to try and see if this makes a difference.
  • Regardless of the hype in the hunting and shooting mags, and internet forums, most elk are not killed at long range, but within a couple hundred yards. Yes, some shot opportunities may be longer, but most of the time you can get closer! Or if in the rut, can call them in closer. Of more than 2 dozen elk taken since 1997, only one was over 250 yards. (And I underestimated the distance while watching the bull come towards me across the field with my scope at 10 power.)
• Mono bullets (Barnes TTSX can be finicky in some rifles and will not shoot at all; generally your rifle will like or hate a mono metal bullet such as the Barnes, there is seldom a middle ground. If it turns out to like it, and that is your preferred projectile, so much the better. But there is no guarantee!
• While your barrel is free-floating, it may actually be one of those rifles that performs better with fore end pressure. Try a business card shim close to the end of the barrel channel to see if this improves groups with this same ammo. If so, you can have a permanent pressure point installed in the barrel channel.
• Have you inspected the crown of the barrel? Any damage can result in degraded accuracy, but it can be cleaned up!
• How heavy is your trigger? And does it have creep and over travel?
  • You may need to have your trigger tweaked to provide you better performance. Typical recommended hunting trigger pull weight is 3 lbs, and this will still allow you to feel your trigger through a light glove if hunting in cooler fall weather.)
• How is your scope? Is it new? Or an old reliable? Has the reticle failed, or is failing? (Do you have another scope you can switch it out for to verify?) Are the rings and bases tight?
• And forgive me, but I do not readily recall your shooting/hunting experience, but the biggest variable in any shooting equation that is always overlooked or not considered, is always the shooter. How is your accuracy with other rifles and cartridges?
  • If you are confident in your shooting abilities and can produce sub-MOA accuracy with your other firearms, than you can disregard this point...but keep in mind we all have good and bad days at the range too that can influence our abilities, and sometimes we need another range trip to verify if it was just not a good day for us (too much coffee, too much stress, tired, sore joints or muscles, etc.). I have a couple of those sessions, where my return trip produced the desired results after a bad outing.

While we mostly prefer MOA or better accuracy from our hunting rifles, 1.5 MOA is typically accurate enough for the average hunter for big game at reasonable distances.
An old rationale taught to me when I first started shooting and hunt as a kid...E.g., 1.5" @ 100 = 3" @ 200 = 4.5" @ 300...so your bullet should land at most this far from your point of aim out to this distance on big game. Your elk will have a 10" vital zone and if you hold centre of it and your bullet lands with 4.5" of that centre, your shot is still in the vitals for a quick, clean kill.

And you are shooting 5 shot groups, which can increase group size averages overall. As a hunting rifle, I like shooting 3 shot groups as it is not for tiny targets (varmint shooting) or long range target shooting.
What were the groups sizes for the first 3 shots of each group of ammo you tried? And did the groups expand with the 4th and 5th shots?
It is rare that I have needed 4 or 5 shots to cleanly harvest an animal...not saying it hasn't or couldn't happen, but when it did, or may happen, it is more likely because of poor bullet placement in the first place. (Rushed the shot, jerked the trigger, did not have a rock solid rest, animal moved as the trigger broke, etc.) This is hunting from field positions, not from a benchrest.

And lastly, how hot did your barrel get while shooting these groups? Just warm to the touch? Hot to the touch? How much interval do you give between shots/groups?
When I am testing any new, or new-to-me firearm, or testing ammunition or handloads, I waith 2 minutes between shots, and allow the barrel to cool down between groups so that there is no chance of this being the cause of groups opening up as the barrel heats up.

I have owned a couple of 7mm Rem Mags over the years, and both shot sub-MOA with factory ammunition. And they each had their preferred loads.
My first was a Rem 700 LLS and it liked the Federal Premium 165 gr SGK ammo, putting 3 rounds into just under a 1/2" at 100 yards, and I killed elk, mule deer, mountain goat, and moose with it, out to 220 yards.
The second was a LH Browning X Bolt All Weather that liked the new Federal 155 gr Terminal Ascent ammo, putting 3 shots into 0.902" at 100 yards, and Federal 160 gr Trophy Bonded Tip ammo into 0.858" groups and Nosler 160 gr AccuBond ammo into 0.580" groups. I did not get the chance to hunt with this rifle before it became part of a rifle swap with another hunter.
I also have a 7mm PRC and a 7mm STW. I shoot the Federal 170 gr TA ammo, and the Nosler 160 gr AccuBond ammo, out of these rifles respectively. Both shoot sub-MOA. I have killed 36 big game animals from 5-475 yards with the STW over the years, ranging from antelope to elk, and including mountain game.

Hope this helps!

 

[RL338]

Looking at the 2 targets posted , to me you have double grouping with a flyer. I would have shot the rifle first before sanding off the front pressure points in the stock.
I think it’s hard to get a factory barrel and factory ammo to shoot sub-MOA on any given day. You may come across one lot that shoots good but being mass produced they have their limitations.

 

[8mm Enthusiast]

Hello, Nosler Reloading Forum Members:
I've spent the past two days shooting my Browning A-bolt in 7mm RM. I recently had this rifle's barrel hand lapped, the Bell & Carlson stock is glass bedded, and the barrel is free floated. I went through four different boxes of ammo: Federal Premium 155 grain Terminal Ascent (3 inch, 5-shot groups, ammo not shown in the picture); Winchester 160 grain AccuBond CT (3 inch, 5-shot groups); Hornady 162 grain, ELD-X (2.5 inch, 5-shot groups); and Barnes 150 grain TTSX (1.75 inch, 5-shot groups - see the attached picture). So my rifle favors the Barnes bullet. I'm a bit disappointed in the accuracy I'm getting from this particular hunting rifle, which I'm considering taking on an elk hunt this fall. My assumption is that the group sizes I'm seeing are probably about as small as they're going to get. I keep asking myself, is this accuracy good enough to conscientiously take this rifle elk hunting? My strong suspicion is that there aren't nearly as many hunting rifles that are true, all day1 MOA rifles as the internet forums and YouTube would have us believe. For those of us who shoot 7mm RM, do my results look "typical" to you? Or are my expectations/hope for better "factory ammo" accuracy unrealistic?
Thanks in advance,
Cowboy307

1.75 Inch for a 5 shot group out of factory ammo isn't amazing but is nowhere close to being bad. It's good enough. Just take the TTSX and go on your hunt. Call the elk into close range and shoot with confidence.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I would try again with 3 shot groups and throw in another box or two different ammo. Browning rifles tend to have very thin barrels and will heat up fast. There arent many times you'll need to shoot more than 3 times elk hunting.

 

[JD338]

I would consider testing a lighter weight bullet after confirming that the mounts and rings are torqued down to proper specs.

JD338

 

[NYDAN]

Cowboy,
There is some good advice listed above.

I have had two (currently one) 7mm Rem Mags. Both were LH Winchester Model 70's with the CRF. I will say that there is some factory ammo that they absolutely hate. In particular, the Federal cartridge loaded with 160 gr. Partition. However, I have had very good success finding hand loads that shot very well in each of them. Since you are specifically looking for factory ammo, I have had some good results across a few cartridges with Nosler ammunition. Currently, Nosler lists 8 factory loads for the 7mm Rem Mag.. 7 of those are in stock. I would recommend trying an assortment that would include the 140 gr. AB, the 150 gr. BT, and the 160 gr. AB. One of those may work well for your rifle.

I happen to have a variety of factory loads on hand. Where are you located? Anywhere near western NY State?

 

[Cowboy307]

Cowboy,
There is some good advice listed above.

I have had two (currently one) 7mm Rem Mags. Both were LH Winchester Model 70's with the CRF. I will say that there is some factory ammo that they absolutely hate. In particular, the Federal cartridge loaded with 160 gr. Partition. However, I have had very good success finding hand loads that shot very well in each of them. Since you are specifically looking for factory ammo, I have had some good results across a few cartridges with Nosler ammunition. Currently, Nosler lists 8 factory loads for the 7mm Rem Mag.. 7 of those are in stock. I would recommend trying an assortment that would include the 140 gr. AB, the 150 gr. BT, and the 160 gr. AB. One of those may work well for your rifle.

I happen to have a variety of factory loads on hand. Where are you located? Anywhere near western NY State?

Hi, Dan: Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I'm currently visiting NC, but I'll be traveling back to WY in a week.

Based on the excellent feedback I've received - thanks, guys - I'll probably pick up a few more boxes of various factory loadings, knowing that my current best-case Barnes TTSX is "nowhere close to being bad," to quote 8mm Enthisiast.
Kind regards,
Cowboy307

 

[Cowboy307]

There could be a number of reasons why this rifle isn't shooting to your expectations:

• All of the bullets you have tried are longer, higher BC bullets that your rifle may just not shoot as well as a a regular cup and core bullet such as a Nosler Partition, Sierra GameKing, or Hornady Interlock. (While the ELD-X is a cup and core bullet, it is a high BC bullet of long profile similar to the others.)
  • Or your rifle may prefer bullets with a flat base such as the Sierra Pro-Hunter, Speer Grand Slam, Swift A-Frame, or Nosler Partition; Pick up a couple of boxes of ammo to try and see if this makes a difference.
  • Regardless of the hype in the hunting and shooting mags, and internet forums, most elk are not killed at long range, but within a couple hundred yards. Yes, some shot opportunities may be longer, but most of the time you can get closer! Or if in the rut, can call them in closer. Of more than 2 dozen elk taken since 1997, only one was over 250 yards. (And I underestimated the distance while watching the bull come towards me across the field with my scope at 10 power.)
• Mono bullets (Barnes TTSX can be finicky in some rifles and will not shoot at all; generally your rifle will like or hate a mono metal bullet such as the Barnes, there is seldom a middle ground. If it turns out to like it, and that is your preferred projectile, so much the better. But there is no guarantee!
• While your barrel is free-floating, it may actually be one of those rifles that performs better with fore end pressure. Try a business card shim close to the end of the barrel channel to see if this improves groups with this same ammo. If so, you can have a permanent pressure point installed in the barrel channel.
• Have you inspected the crown of the barrel? Any damage can result in degraded accuracy, but it can be cleaned up!
• How heavy is your trigger? And does it have creep and over travel?
  • You may need to have your trigger tweaked to provide you better performance. Typical recommended hunting trigger pull weight is 3 lbs, and this will still allow you to feel your trigger through a light glove if hunting in cooler fall weather.)
• How is your scope? Is it new? Or an old reliable? Has the reticle failed, or is failing? (Do you have another scope you can switch it out for to verify?) Are the rings and bases tight?
• And forgive me, but I do not readily recall your shooting/hunting experience, but the biggest variable in any shooting equation that is always overlooked or not considered, is always the shooter. How is your accuracy with other rifles and cartridges?
  • If you are confident in your shooting abilities and can produce sub-MOA accuracy with your other firearms, than you can disregard this point...but keep in mind we all have good and bad days at the range too that can influence our abilities, and sometimes we need another range trip to verify if it was just not a good day for us (too much coffee, too much stress, tired, sore joints or muscles, etc.). I have a couple of those sessions, where my return trip produced the desired results after a bad outing.

While we mostly prefer MOA or better accuracy from our hunting rifles, 1.5 MOA is typically accurate enough for the average hunter for big game at reasonable distances.
An old rationale taught to me when I first started shooting and hunt as a kid...E.g., 1.5" @ 100 = 3" @ 200 = 4.5" @ 300...so your bullet should land at most this far from your point of aim out to this distance on big game. Your elk will have a 10" vital zone and if you hold centre of it and your bullet lands with 4.5" of that centre, your shot is still in the vitals for a quick, clean kill.

And you are shooting 5 shot groups, which can increase group size averages overall. As a hunting rifle, I like shooting 3 shot groups as it is not for tiny targets (varmint shooting) or long range target shooting.
What were the groups sizes for the first 3 shots of each group of ammo you tried? And did the groups expand with the 4th and 5th shots?
It is rare that I have needed 4 or 5 shots to cleanly harvest an animal...not saying it hasn't or couldn't happen, but when it did, or may happen, it is more likely because of poor bullet placement in the first place. (Rushed the shot, jerked the trigger, did not have a rock solid rest, animal moved as the trigger broke, etc.) This is hunting from field positions, not from a benchrest.

And lastly, how hot did your barrel get while shooting these groups? Just warm to the touch? Hot to the touch? How much interval do you give between shots/groups?
When I am testing any new, or new-to-me firearm, or testing ammunition or handloads, I waith 2 minutes between shots, and allow the barrel to cool down between groups so that there is no chance of this being the cause of groups opening up as the barrel heats up.

I have owned a couple of 7mm Rem Mags over the years, and both shot sub-MOA with factory ammunition. And they each had their preferred loads.
My first was a Rem 700 LLS and it liked the Federal Premium 165 gr SGK ammo, putting 3 rounds into just under a 1/2" at 100 yards, and I killed elk, mule deer, mountain goat, and moose with it, out to 220 yards.
The second was a LH Browning X Bolt All Weather that liked the new Federal 155 gr Terminal Ascent ammo, putting 3 shots into 0.902" at 100 yards, and Federal 160 gr Trophy Bonded Tip ammo into 0.858" groups and Nosler 160 gr AccuBond ammo into 0.580" groups. I did not get the chance to hunt with this rifle before it became part of a rifle swap with another hunter.
I also have a 7mm PRC and a 7mm STW. I shoot the Federal 170 gr TA ammo, and the Nosler 160 gr AccuBond ammo, out of these rifles respectively. Both shoot sub-MOA. I have killed 36 big game animals from 5-475 yards with the STW over the years, ranging from antelope to elk, and including mountain game.

Hope this helps!

I very much appreciate your detailed comments, Blkram. Undoubtedly, a great marksman could have done a better job than me with the ammo I tried. For what it's worth, I have a few rifles that I can consistently shoot better than the A-Bolt, i.e., 1 MOA groups with factory ammo. The riflescope I have on my A-Bolt is a Meopta MeoPro 3-9X50. Everything is tight, level, and torqued to spec, but it is a relatively light rifle for a 7mm RM, so the recoil makes it challenging to stay on target through the shot. Still, I have a Cooper Model 52 in 33 Nosler that has significant recoil, and it groups at about an inch. My bottom line... I'll try some different ammo.

 

[JD338]

I’d look at the 165-168 gr class of bullets.
How’s the recoil for you? Without proper fit, recoil can become an uncomfortable experience. Adding a Pachmyer Decelerator Magnum recoil pad can make a big difference in felt recoil. I helped a neighbor buddy set up his M700 BDL 30-06 for shooting out to 400 yds. Added a better scope with CDS dial, timney hunter trigger and a Pachmyer Decelerator recoil pad. He now shoots out to 600 yards with comfort and confidence.

JD338