Whats the Better Equipment

[338winmag]

I currently use the Lee Collet Neck Sizing die and the Lee Dead Length Bullet Seating die set. I am loosing faith real fast in this setup. Just came back from the range. I am still getting extremely unexpected fliers and one can easily see why since I am using the chrony for every round. The ES is anywhere from 45-79 on these fliers.

You may be right and I may be crazy but ......

Has anyone else had un acceptable group performance including ES when using this combon and found that another combo made miraculous perfomance changes to the better?

I don't want to break the bank, but I am starting to really believe its this die combo.
Any experiences?

Thanks
338winmag

 

[DrMike]

I wouldn't jettison the dies just yet. The Lee dies make some pretty good ammunition. While it is true that everything else being equal, I prefer small extreme spreads, there are occasions that I have measured what can only be described as excessive extreme spreads (as much as 100 fps or more) and yet observe excellent accuracy. Until you have ruled out problems with bullet seating, chamber symmetry, inconsistent burn rates, etc., it is not wise to spend money on a new set of dies. I have used almost every brand of die on the market, and each can turn out very accurate ammunition. Give us a little insight. Which cartridge is in question? What are the specific on the load? What measurements have you made on the cartridge? What velocities are you measuring? Let's examine these and see what others may say.

 

[JD338]

I agree with DrMike, we need additional information on your loads.

JD338

 

[338winmag]

I thought I had a few of these conquered but today's range experience left me humbled.

I will start with these two: Savage 111 FCXP3 (30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag)
Both using Nikon Primos 3-9x40mm

30-06
Winchester brass (Started virgin, fired 3 times total)
WLR primer
H4350 powder (Used 59, 57.5, 55, 54.1)
Bullets (Hornady Interlock SBT 165, Hornady SST BT 165, Sierra GK BT 165)
FPS 2785-2802 (Fliers outside this ES)

7mm Rem Mag
Winchester brass (Started virgin, fired 3 times total)
Federal 215 and 215 Match
H4831sc (Used 62, 61, 59, 57.7) H1000 (used 68 and 66)
Bullets (Hornady Interlock SBT 162, Sierra GK BT 160)
FPS 2868-2901 (Fliers outside this ES)

Here is what I have done so far to try to eliminate any possible issues:
Every charge is measured minimum twice but usually 3 times
Primers are seated fully
Every case length is pre-measured and trimmed to minimum for same length (+- .002)
Every time lightly beveled and chamfered
After fire formed, 2nd and 3rd neck sized only
Annealing will come before 4th reload
Last round (3rd reload), brass and bullets were weighed and placed in categories
Bullet seating (loading on lands this last reload)
Prior bullet seating depths were tested from .010-.050 with .010 steps
Using Lee Factory Crimp (Light crimp) Not using crimp - no difference
Allowing barrels to cool after 3-5 shots

Might have missed a few things.. but still getting fliers as though I have .5 grain or a whole grain dfference in some loads? These fliers make the difference in groups. As soon as I see POI out of decent group, I can look at the Chrony and sure enough that 45-75 FPS diff every time. As long as the FPS is relatively close (5-30 FPS), the grouping is great.

Thoughts and Thanks

 

[SJB358]

Are you shooting these rifles for 5 rounds in consecutive shots Steve. Reason I ask is those Sporter weight barrels will begin to heat up as will the chambers in order to start jumping some speed as you get into 4-5 shots in my experience. Again, for hunting rifles, I run 3 shots and sometimes a 4th to verify a bad shot, but hardly ever try for 5 shot groups.

I cannot pick about your loading process at all, seems very thorough (like you had a really good bunch of advice once upon a time)! Like Mike said, I doubt it is your reloading equipment at all. Lee dies might not be the absolute best ever, they are good. I doubt a sporter/hunting rifle would ever be able to tell the difference from Lee to something like Forster.

I would start looking to see which shot is the flyer and mark that case with your sharpie. If it happens twice, with the same case, that would at least tell you if it is the case or something else. Just my knucklehead way of eliminating the little variables. Scotty

 

[rick smith]

I would try different components one at a time to check for any difference. In our current heat, I don't shoot over three at a time, let the barrel cool.Rick.

 

[338winmag]

I have thought about the number of consecutive shots though they are not 5 in 5 minutes. I have been touching the barrel after the second shot to see if it was getting real hot. My 338 Win Mag gets really hot after the second shot with a third shot as max before allowing to cool.

I did not think these barrels were getting that hot but.... the first and second shot are super close in FPS and it is either the thrid or fourth that goes awry. I can understand if it is just the POI off, but I have truly correlated the POI off with the FPS deviation always high. Can a hot barrel cause speed to increase... by pressure? Funny though the 5th round is not the round that is FPS deviant though.

I am very open to suggestions ... as Scotty so very correctly pointed out. I have learned greatly from phone calls to Scotty and a few others as well as a vast amount of knowledge from everyone's input. Don't stop now. I am teachable.

Thanks all.

 

[SJB358]

I have thought about the number of consecutive shots though they are not 5 in 5 minutes. I have been touching the barrel after the second shot to see if it was getting real hot. My 338 Win Mag gets really hot after the second shot with a third shot as max before allowing to cool.

I did not think these barrels were getting that hot but.... the first and second shot are super close in FPS and it is either the thrid or fourth that goes awry. I can understand if it is just the POI off, but I have truly correlated the POI off with the FPS deviation always high. Can a hot barrel cause speed to increase... by pressure? Funny though the 5th round is not the round that is FPS deviant though.

I am very open to suggestions ... as Scotty so very correctly pointed out. I have learned greatly from phone calls to Scotty and a few others as well as a vast amount of knowledge from everyone's input. Don't stop now. I am teachable.

Thanks all.

Steve, without a doubt, as the barrel/chamber heat up, your speeds will increase. Two shots for most rifles will be pretty close, but the third from an 06 based cartridge or bigger will really be darned warm at the 3rd shot and more (if fired when still warm). I really think bedding plays a large role in the rifle as it starts to heat up as well. A properly bedded rifle will be more heat tolerant, while one that is not will tend to start walking shots. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Are your fliers occurring in a consistent manner? Does the first shot from a cold barrel have the same POI as the third shot? Does the flier occur after four shots? A consistent flier will tell you whether you need a fouling shot or whether there is a potential pressure point. Does the flier always tend to be in the same location relative to the group on a given rifle? This could address the issue of pressure point, or even expose a flaw in your form at the shooting bench.

Start with the simple things (apply Occam's Razor (lex parsimoniae)). Check to see that your rings and bases are not loose. Ensure that they have been tightened to an appropriate setting. Ensure that the action screws are properly tightened on your rifles.

It that all checks out, it is time to address technique at the loading bench. Generally, with a powder such as H4350 and a standard case volume, a 2% differential in charge weights will give you sufficient information to draw a conclusion. In other words, a one grain difference is enough to inform you concerning your loads. Your velocities on the 30-06 are right in line with what I'd expect to see. You have some room to increase velocity on the 7mm RM in all probability.

Let me ask whether you are remember to tare your scale before you begin weighing? If so, and if you use check weights occasionally, you need not throw a charge multiple times. Your description of technique appears to meet a standard that would permit creation of consistent loads.

The only other point I would raise is probably unnecessary, but I'll state it in any case. Make sure you do not toggle over with the Lee Collet Die as it works differently from other sizing dies. You want to meet the shell holder firmly without camming over.

 

[Desert Fox]

Picture of the group would be helpful.

 

[JD338]

Picture of the group would be helpful.

+1
Number your shots too.

I would shoot 3 shot groups and allow 4-5 minutes between shots to aid in keeping the barrel cool.
I use a couple of paper towels folded over twice and soaked in water to drape over the barrel between shots. It aids in pulling the heat out of the barrel.

JD338

 

[rick smith]

Better than water is alcohol. Get the least expensive. works good.Rick.

 

[barthowes]

I see the problem. its the bullets. they're not nosler :wink: lol
just kidding. I would put more stock into the gun being too hot and maybe other inconsistancies. My savage 116 30-06 accustock gets pretty hot after the second or third round. I use the Lee neck sizer myself and get great accuracy .

 

[338winmag]

Pictures are in this thread --> "3006 Hornady 165 gr Interlock"

Okay, I am going to refine my reload processing and my shooting arrangement. I will be going out Wednesday with new incorporated suggestions.

Scotty, as always, you are dead-on and others agreed and followed suit. Must be those 30+ years of reloading experience. These particular Savage sporter rifle barrels are skinny things at least compared to my Vanguard and some other rifles. I believe everyone's comments on barrel heating and the effects on the groups is valid.

1. I am going incroporate shooting only 1 or 2 and then allowing barrel to significantly cool.

2. Also will test the alcohol blankets
A. Does this affect barrel bluing?

The Rock Chucker press married with the Lee products are not an easy perfect match because of the Cam Over feature of the RC. I have read some that state they incorporate the Cam Over and all is good. I have done the same. I am now questioning that. I know how to incorporate without using the Cam Over but I was concerned about how to get an exact 20 pounds with just a feel? Peening seems to be an issue if incorrectly using the cam over with the neck sizing product.

3. Going to clean and smooth out (very very lightly) every one of my neck sizing dies. I have five sets so this might be a good test to validate with.

4. Looking at purchasing another press just for neck sizing and Lee Factory Crimp die crimping. (I was incorporating the Lee crimping for the exact reason of more consistent and less deviant ES -so far not the result I was looking for) Are other presses other than a Lee press, cam over presses or only Rock Chuckers. If anyone is successfully using a Rock Chucker to perform Le Collet Neck Sizing, it would be interesting to hear the technique.

I do calibrate and verify my scales every time for reloading since I move the scales after each caliber reloading process. I measure most often three times with each charge by allowing scale to stop, lift, sit pan back down and repeat again twice. I have caught weight to be off less than .10. I shoot for as perfect as possible for each weight which is why the FPS deviation catches me off guard unless this RCBS 5-0-2 scales is bad? This deviation has now been seen with 2 different chronographs so that kinda rules out my personal chrony. I have just started reloading for a 300 Win Mag and have found the same scenario. This is a custom rifle with a custom barrel so you can see why the confusion of what is actually causing the FPS ES deviation.

The fliers are rarely rarely ever #1 or #2 at least for the rifles I am load testing (but I am not saying absolutely 100% - maybe there was aone time scenario). They can sometimes be #3 (actually this is more often the case, and the FPS is almost always a faster FPS and deviation is almost always greater than 40 FPS. It can sometimes be #4 and again the FPS deviation reflects why the POI is not with the previous shots. What confuses me though is that if it is a barrel heat issue, and #3 is the flier, would not the #4 or when I shoot 5 shot groups, why #5 does not show that FPS deviation as well. I get FPS groups like the following actual recorded groups:

30-06
1. 2789 -- 2797
2. 2797 -- 2781
3. 2852 -- 2796
4. 2801 -- 2861
5. N/A -- 2803

Custom 300 Win Mag (first set with match primers)
1. 2898 -- 2904
2. 2930 -- 2904
3. 2886 -- 2886
4. 2886 -- 2898
5. 2873 -- 2836

I will keep ya'll in the loop next week. Thanks all
338winmag

 

[efw]

Ever since I started reloading I've run the Lee Collet Neck Sizer for my '06 and have found it FANTASTIC for concentricity. That having been said, the "but" is that I have a Lee press w/out cam-over, so that may well be the difference in our performance.

I'd highly recommend giving Lee a call to talk through the die adjustment to ensure that you have it right. The Collet Neck Sizer can be a bit tricky to adjust.

The one thing I could see w/ that die that'd cause ES issues is neck tension, particularly if you're having issues with the adjustment of the die in the press. This could be the problem you're experiencing, but again I'd call Lee and talk through adjustment because I've had absolutely wonderful performance from these dies to the extent that they're one of the first things I order when working with a new cartridge, even if I have to get one custom built for a wildcat like my 6mm-250.

Once you have the die adjusted it'll be a matter of experience to get a "feel" for the appropriate "squeeze" at the bottom of the stroke to get the consistency in neck tension you need. One tip I'd offer is that you run each case 2x... hit it once, drop the ram just enough to expose the shell holder, turn the case 1/4 turn, and run it with the same tension as the first time. This helped me in achieving uniformity in neck tension from case-to-case when I was learning and now it is just a habit...

I didn't read this whole thread carefully enough, but the other thing that may be the issue here is COAL. I start all my load development .01" off the lands or as long as the mag box will allow, whichever is longest, but have found that oftentimes I get fliers that disappear w/ shorter lengths.

 

[rick smith]

338, Alcohol will remove all the oil on your barrel so wipe it down after each range session. Never used a Lee collet die, I use Redding Type "S" neck bushing dies, load on a Forster Co-Ax. No concentricity problems.Rick.

 

[1Shot]

I have always found that when you have fliers that are caused by velocity changes in a load it is either a primer or powder problem not a loading process problem. Primers do make a BIG difference in how a load works. That is the first place I would look.

 

[338winmag]

thanks 1Shot.
I have been so freaking anal with powder charges and bullet and primer seating, case prep that I am also at the point where it just cant be those things.

I am a little concerned with neck tension and Lee Collet Neck Sizing and Lee Factory Crimp dies and how I am using them with my RCBS press that does cam over at the end of the stroke. I will be calling them this morning. I just can't remember the FPS deviation anything great when using RCBS dies and FL the cases.

It then just has to be the powder or primers. I have been using Hodgdons temp insensitive powders lately and starting to wonder if I "drank the koolaid" on this powder.

Do you monitor your reload FPS and ES and if so, what do you see with any large caliber reloads?

Thanks
Steve