When to call it quits on a bullet

[hunter24605]

Just curious at what point do you give up on a bullet for a particular rifle. Case in point; I'm working with my friends 308 win that his son uses. He brought me a bunch of 150 grain gold dots. I've tried W748, Varget, and 4064 so far, and the best I can achieve is about 3.5" group @ 100, and almost always had a flier. Early on I decided to see if it might me a scope/rifle problem, so I tried a 150 grand slam and with 748 and and it shot just about 3/4" by just picking a load that was proclaimed to be accurate. I don't know if there is a powder that will shrink the groups by 4" considering the powders I've tried are considered "goto" powders for the 308, or is it that the rifle just doesn't like the gold dot. The gold dot works great in my bro in law's 308 AR..

 

[truck driver]

Sounds like it's time to me.

 

[DrMike]

Of course, powders with a similar burn rate are possibilities, but unless you have a large powder magazine with a variety of powders to try, it would appear that you're near the end. Out of curiosity, did you measure velocity on the loads you tried. Many times, if the standard devision is small, though accuracy is lacking, it is a strong indicator that adjustment of seating depth might resolve the issue. However, without velocities and the associated ES and SD, that decision falls down to a simple choice to pull the plug on the bullet. As an aside, there is nothing wrong with the Grand Slam, if your friend is willing to accept them.

 

[1Shot]

Sounds to me that with 3.5" groups that rifle not only dislikes that bullet but HATES IT. One thing that does come to mind is, are you using Speer's loading data for that particular bullet? Everything I have seen from Speer about the Gold Dot rifle bullets they specifically state to use THEIR specific load data. I know from working with this bullet in my 6.5 Grendel you can't use as much powder as with other bullets of the same weight or you run into pressure but you still get the velocity that heaver charges provide. I believer that Speer has free data on the web for this bullet. I know they do for the 6.5 Grendel.

 

[bobnob]

Yep. You can chase your tail or just settle quickly on something that actually works.

I usually try at most two powders at a small handful of different charge weights each, and if the gun doesn’t show me some promise with that bullet pretty quickly, I move on.

If it shows promise I’ll tinker a little more with charge weights and seating depth.

But these days I’m all for cutting losses early!

 

[Elkman]

I would give up on it also. Varget is one of the go to powders for the .308. I have never shot or used a "gold dot" but it's obviously not the rifle, if the GS does well. I hate load develop with a passion. If you want to try another less expensive bullet for general use, find another flat base Speer bullet with a similar BC and profile as the GS and try it.

 

[hunter24605]

Sounds to me that with 3.5" groups that rifle not only dislikes that bullet but HATES IT. One thing that does come to mind is, are you using Speer's loading data for that particular bullet? Everything I have seen from Speer about the Gold Dot rifle bullets they specifically state to use THEIR specific load data. I know from working with this bullet in my 6.5 Grendel you can't use as much powder as with other bullets of the same weight or you run into pressure but you still get the velocity that heaver charges provide. I believer that Speer has free data on the web for this bullet. I know they do for the 6.5 Grendel.

Yep, I used data straight from Speer for the 150 Gold Dot

 

[Anonymous]

I'd say it's time to move on.

I'm pretty quick to pull the plug on something that doesn't really work out. I'd say you've made a reasonable effort to develop a load with that bullet and have found a very acceptable substitute load with another well regarded hunting bullet...I'd suggest your friend lay in some Grand Slams and move on.

A guy can really burn through a lot of components just trying to make something work that won't. You could try to drop back to starting charges, but then you're at the bottom of the velocity ladder and that's not a good hunting load for entirely different reasons.

For instance- I really wanted to use 165gr ABs with Superformance in my .300WSM at 3200fps...I could get the speed or the accuracy my rifle produces...just not both at once and that sort of defeated the purpose for what I wanted.

 

[Blkram]

Sounds like the rifle just does not like that bullet, and the owner needs to let you know what he wants to do moving forward.

 

[hunter24605]

Of course, powders with a similar burn rate are possibilities, but unless you have a large powder magazine with a variety of powders to try, it would appear that you're near the end. Out of curiosity, did you measure velocity on the loads you tried. Many times, if the standard devision is small, though accuracy is lacking, it is a strong indicator that adjustment of seating depth might resolve the issue. However, without velocities and the associated ES and SD, that decision falls down to a simple choice to pull the plug on the bullet. As an aside, there is nothing wrong with the Grand Slam, if your friend is willing to accept them.

Yea, the chrono showed that 4064 should have been my huckleberry with the others only slightly worse for ES, SD. I tried 4064 and 748 at .010, .030, and .050 without any appreciable gain in accuracy. Also 4064 hit a flat spot between 46.3, 46.6, 46.9, 47.2 with only an 11 fps ES between 46.3 to 47.2 And that's where I found the best group at 3.5"

 

[hunter24605]

Sounds like the rifle just does not like that bullet, and the owner needs to let you know what he wants to do moving forward.

Yea, last fall I worked up a load for this same rifle with a 150 Hndy Interlock and it's an excellent performer both on paper and critters, I assume he'll fall back to that...But it was worth a shot!

 

[TackDriver284]

Sounds like the rifle don't like the bullet. Have you tried H4895? It's a great powder for light bullets I heard, I have two pounds of it myself, but never tried it yet since Varget worked very well for me and never tried a lighter bullet than 165 grains yet. Hope you find something that will make it shoot.

 

[BretN]

Sounds like you have 2 loads all set already with Hornady and the GS. 3.5" groups aren't real confidence inspiring. There's a lot of other good bullets worth trying, or stick with what you have.

 

[Blkram]

We never know unless we ask or try!
That's the fun part, trying new components!

 

[1Shot]

I have been hand loading over 40 years and have run into a couple rifles that really had their preferences. One was a Rem. 700 in 7mm Rem mag. Bought 100 new Rem cases. I ran them through a FL size die just to uniform necks. Started load work up. After using 5 different bullets in different makes and weights and three different powders and two different primers this rifle would only shoot around 2 1/2" at it's best. Now all the time I was using the new cases. After putting 100 rounds down range in my search for a load I had to start with the fired cases. I decided to just part size the cases which just bumped the shoulder a little. Loaded up the best load I had found so far. Went to the range and fired the first shot and it went on the paper. Next shot there was only one bullet hole in the target. Thought, now it won't even put two shots on the target. I fired shot three and still only one bullet hole in the target. Fired shot 4 and still only one hole in the target. But I thought, is it my eyes or is that hole just a bit larger than before. I fired the 5th shot and still just that one hole in the target. Went down to the target and low and behold all five shot went almost into the exact same hole. The rifle turned out to shoot almost any bullet you put in it with a case full of AA3100 as long as the case had been previously fired in it and just part sized. Had a custom Rem 700 built using a Shilen barrel in 25-06. Was trying to get different make and weight boat tail bullets to shoot and they were not accurate. Switched to flat base bullets and it shot like a bench rest rifle. I still have that rifle. So you never no what a rifle will prefer.

 

[hunter24605]

So last night I decided to back-up and punt with this. I ditched the LC brass he gave me and tried 20 pcs of 1X fired Win brass I picked up at the range. I also changed to a magnum primer and Reloder 15. Started at 45.5 up to 47.5 grains. After 46.0 grains The groups progressively opened up to about 1.5" by the time I got to 47.5 . The 46.0 group measures just under .4 with that daggone flier that I knew was gonna be off as soon as the hammer fell, so I didn't count it in group size. This Savage Hog Hunter rifle only has a 20" barrel so the 2750 fps is a tad slow, but accuracy is there!

 

[DrMike]

Looks as if you're well on the way to finding something that'll work. Good show.

 

[hunter24605]

Yeah, Mike. I was all set to give up on the gold dot, but I had that nagging feeling that I wasn't going to let this thing whip me that easy..It became my white whale.

 

[DrMike]

Careful with those white whales. I seem to recall that Ahab didn't really win that contest. :shock: Still, your results do look to be quite satisfying. You've done well.

 

[gbflyer]

I’ve never gotten repeatable accuracy with 7.62 GI cases. Most of that stuff is made for or has been fired from a M60/variant. I’ve weighed, trimmed, neck turned, deburred, uniformed...all with minimal success. Best results I’ve gotten has been from Norma, never tried Lapua but I’m sure it’s awesome. A close second would be the stuff Federal uses for GMM and OTM. In fact, those two have proven very hard to beat for me at the 600 yard line.