Weatherby freebore in Vanguard?

M

meatmachineman

Handloader
Jan 25, 2012
276
0
Pretty much as the title suggests, I'm wondering if Wannabee Vanguards have the same freebore as an actual Mark V Weatherby. I only ask as I used a load out of the previous edition of Modern Reloading to load for my Weatherby Vanguard Sporter in 300 Wby. I forget exactly what the max load was, but I was towards the upper end on the scale, not max though, at 84.5gr of IMR 7828 pushing a 180g AccuBond seated at 3.575. I also found similar data on a promo ad for IMR 7828. When I picked up the latest edition of Modern Reloading I found that the same data had been watered down a bit to match the data from other sources. I can no longer find any load data that shows a charge being that hot. I made photo copies of the data from my old Lee manual before I gave it to a friend who I got hooked into reloading. When I went with 84.5, I worked up to that load and went up to 85 and settled in at 84.5g. I didn't note any warning signs but am now getting close to having to wipe the pooh out of my shorts. Even though it's a Howa, I'm just hoping my Wannabee still has the freebore of an actual RoyToy. I don't push the envelope on my loads and always stay under max, but I was looking to get the velocity that RoyToys are known for in a reload. Unfortunately, I can no longer find any published data aside from those photocopied pages. I couldn't even find that ad for 7828. I'm just worried that I'm in dangerous territory with my load.
 
If you worked up from a safe minimum and there are no overt signs of excessive pressure, you have acted with discretion and should be safe.

Older manuals were optimistic in part because the copper crusher and/or lead crusher methodology was not as sophisticated as modern piezoelectric measurements. Consequently, newer manuals are more realistic in addressing the issue of SAAMI pressure standards. Also, remember that lot-to-lot variations for propellants and primers contribute to differences. Though the differential may be marginal, surplus powders tend to burn faster as they age, contributing to significant change over time. Newer manufactured powders frequently have improved deterrents and coatings that also contribute to changes. It is a good rule of thumb to assume that the newer tests provide the more accurate data. When using older data, work up, as you did, watching for pressure signs.
 
I hear ya Mike as far as your point on having worked up safely, but I started at 80gr... just a grain and a half shy of many of the current published maximums. Also, as far as old data goes, the Lee manual I utilized was one that my dad had on his shelf. It was the same one that was available on the rack up until not too long ago (last year or two maybe) before they added a ton of new data and changed up the actual dimensions of the book (same cover art and still 2nd edition, just a newer printing with more data I suppose). I guess I'm concerned about over-stressing my rifle. If it's on a Mark V, I wouldn't even be asking, but it's a Vanguard so I turned on the sweat machine!
 
i don't have an manual in front of me but i looked real quick at wikipedia and they said the max OAL is 3.562. IMO at no point should a person load over this length without actually measuring that particular gun to make sure it is safe. IMO get the newest data you can find and start over. IMR website only has IMR 7828 SSC with a 180gr e-tip with a max load of 81. Now with that said usually a monolithic bullet is more MID-charge as they are know to produce more pressure, but I see NO data on their own website for any other bullet
 
I have worked up loads on several Vanguards chambered in 300 WBY. My impression is that the freebore is the same as on other Weatherbys. QuickLOAD does project a maximum charge of 81.3 grains with the 180 grain AB, which is assuredly milder than what you report for older manuals.

Cartridge : .300 Weath. Mag.
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler AccuBond 54825
Useable Case Capaci: 87.035 grain H2O = 5.651 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.560 inch = 90.42 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : IMR 7828

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 65.04 2477 2453 31887 10984 89.2 1.544
-18.0 86 66.67 2542 2584 34094 11360 90.7 1.504
-16.0 88 68.29 2608 2718 36460 11724 92.0 1.465
-14.0 90 69.92 2674 2857 38994 12073 93.3 1.418
-12.0 92 71.54 2740 3000 41711 12405 94.5 1.373
-10.0 94 73.17 2806 3146 44626 12719 95.5 1.330
-08.0 96 74.80 2872 3297 47756 13013 96.5 1.288
-06.0 98 76.42 2938 3450 51119 13284 97.4 1.247
-04.0 100 78.05 3004 3607 54738 13532 98.1 1.208 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 102 79.67 3070 3767 58634 13755 98.7 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 81.30 3136 3930 62833 13950 99.2 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 106 82.93 3201 4096 67365 14116 99.6 1.099 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 84.55 3266 4264 72266 14253 99.8 1.065 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 86.18 3331 4435 77566 14358 100.0 1.032 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 87.80 3395 4607 83275 14434 100.0 1.000 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 89.43 3459 4782 89442 14499 100.0 0.970 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 81.30 3282 4305 76348 13474 100.0 1.046 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 81.30 2930 3430 50703 13639 93.6 1.248

Eighty-four and a half grains is in somewhat warm territory (c. 72k psi) by this projection.
 
Seems like a chrono is mandatory in order to get true speeds and values when loading for a WBY.
 
while i ponder a little longer, you started the post asking about freebore as the title and first sentence state, then only talk about possibly being over pressure due to being over max powder weight and the discrepancy in new and old data. in case you don't know this i say : Freebore is the distance between where the bullet in you loaded cartridge is and the lands. The more freebore a rifle has the more the ability to seat bullets out farther. Each gun is different even of the same make and model.
 
I am sure that Robert knows what freebore is.

Scotty, you may be right. It may not be totally neccesary to have a chrono for maximum load development in the Weatherby cartridges but it sure makes the job easier. Especially with IMR7828 which hits the wall pretty fast on pressures at maximum loading. One grain more in a load and things get dicey with bolt lift and embossing bolt faces into case surfaces. If you want the fastest MV in Weatherby's though, you have to flirt with the dragon's fire.
 
i wasn't trying to be condesending or anything, and i'm sorry if i offended. it's just he asked about the freebore of "his" rifle without measureing it and used a load that was over max OAL. unless wikipidia is wrong which it may very well be.. it wasn't a big of assumption to think he didn't know what it meant.
 
The issue with Weatherbys is that measuring freebore is generally a pain in the rear. I have yet to find a bullet in standard weight ranges that will touch the lands and the case mouth at the same time in my 270Wby and 300Wby.

To answer the basic question, yes, the Vanguard does have the "standard" Weatherby freebore.

In response to the underlying question on load data, I'll make a few comments based on my experience and observations:

Current load data for the Weatherby cartridges is dismal in most manuals. By dismal, I mean it's garbage. The shining exception on my bench is the Nosler manual. I was pleased to see the data still showing the true capabilities of the cartridges in Nosler #7 when I received it for Christmas this year. Other current manuals are useless, in my opinion. Why are they useless? Well, in most instances, the powder or bullet company does not own a test barrel in most of the Weatherby chamberings. I've confirmed this with Hodgdon outright. I draw this conclusion based on the lack of data for many 'bees from Western Powders, and the anemic offerings from Speer, Alliant, Sierra, and others. I believe Barnes is still testing appropriately, but I cannot verify what will happen now that they are under the Freedom Group umbrella. The data is so bad from many of these sources that the same velocities are listed for the 270Win as the 270Wby, and the 270WSM is showing higher velocities. The same is true for the 300WinMag and the 300Wby. You can make that comparison in numerous calibers. It's a shame, but the reality is, the Weatherby rounds are simply not being tested at this time, and as a result, companies are running simulations and applying a wide safety margin to the data, and publishing it.

With respect to Quickload, I've found it to grossly overestimate pressures in Weatherby chamberings across the board. That is from viewing data for the 257, 270, 7mm, 300, and 340 'bees, and the testing of said data in the 257, 270, 300, and (indirectly) the 340. The 270 and one of the 300s are my own rifles, for which I have extensive test data. The 257s belong to friends of mine, as does the 340. My suspicion is that QL does not take the freebore of these cartridges into account, and as such, overestimates pressure and velocity for a given powder charge. I can find no other reason why in literally every instance, the velocities achieved are uniformly about 7% lower than QL predicts. I'd think it was just one rifle, or maybe just a couple, but it's been eerily consistent and it's been across seven individual rifles. I've spoken to some folks about QL and apparently you can go into the settings and adjust the freebore length in an effort to correct for this phenomenon, but I have yet to see anyone take the time to do so. It is apparently not a simple correction.

If I were loading for a Weatherby round (which, of course, I am) I'd pay special attention to the Nosler manual, and I'd equally learn to pay special attention to the pressure signs in my rifle. For inexperienced loaders, I always recommend grabbing a box of Weatherby factory ammo to use as a baseline in understanding how your rifle will shoot. I'm sure that's not the issue for you, Robert, but it is what I recommend for newbies. In your situation, a quick review of the Nosler data in #7 shows your load to be appropriate as per the current (and recently published) data from the company who manufactures the bullet you're using. The max charge is identical to your chosen charge - 84.5gr - and is, coincidentally, listed as the most accurate charge from the most accurate powder tested. I would neither sweat this, nor change anything, unless you see pressure signs, which you do not, you say. Enjoy shooting the 'bee and worry not about the folks who don't bother to actually test their data before they publish it.
 
dubyam":2299y2dk said:
The issue with Weatherbys is that measuring freebore is generally a pain in the rear. I have yet to find a bullet in standard weight ranges that will touch the lands and the case mouth at the same time in my 270Wby and 300Wby.

To answer the basic question, yes, the Vanguard does have the "standard" Weatherby freebore.

In response to the underlying question on load data, I'll make a few comments based on my experience and observations:

Current load data for the Weatherby cartridges is dismal in most manuals. By dismal, I mean it's garbage. The shining exception on my bench is the Nosler manual. I was pleased to see the data still showing the true capabilities of the cartridges in Nosler #7 when I received it for Christmas this year. Other current manuals are useless, in my opinion. Why are they useless? Well, in most instances, the powder or bullet company does not own a test barrel in most of the Weatherby chamberings. I've confirmed this with Hodgdon outright. I draw this conclusion based on the lack of data for many 'bees from Western Powders, and the anemic offerings from Speer, Alliant, Sierra, and others. I believe Barnes is still testing appropriately, but I cannot verify what will happen now that they are under the Freedom Group umbrella. The data is so bad from many of these sources that the same velocities are listed for the 270Win as the 270Wby, and the 270WSM is showing higher velocities. The same is true for the 300WinMag and the 300Wby. You can make that comparison in numerous calibers. It's a shame, but the reality is, the Weatherby rounds are simply not being tested at this time, and as a result, companies are running simulations and applying a wide safety margin to the data, and publishing it.

With respect to Quickload, I've found it to grossly overestimate pressures in Weatherby chamberings across the board. That is from viewing data for the 257, 270, 7mm, 300, and 340 'bees, and the testing of said data in the 257, 270, 300, and (indirectly) the 340. The 270 and one of the 300s are my own rifles, for which I have extensive test data. The 257s belong to friends of mine, as does the 340. My suspicion is that QL does not take the freebore of these cartridges into account, and as such, overestimates pressure and velocity for a given powder charge. I can find no other reason why in literally every instance, the velocities achieved are uniformly about 7% lower than QL predicts. I'd think it was just one rifle, or maybe just a couple, but it's been eerily consistent and it's been across seven individual rifles. I've spoken to some folks about QL and apparently you can go into the settings and adjust the freebore length in an effort to correct for this phenomenon, but I have yet to see anyone take the time to do so. It is apparently not a simple correction.

If I were loading for a Weatherby round (which, of course, I am) I'd pay special attention to the Nosler manual, and I'd equally learn to pay special attention to the pressure signs in my rifle. For inexperienced loaders, I always recommend grabbing a box of Weatherby factory ammo to use as a baseline in understanding how your rifle will shoot. I'm sure that's not the issue for you, Robert, but it is what I recommend for newbies. In your situation, a quick review of the Nosler data in #7 shows your load to be appropriate as per the current (and recently published) data from the company who manufactures the bullet you're using. The max charge is identical to your chosen charge - 84.5gr - and is, coincidentally, listed as the most accurate charge from the most accurate powder tested. I would neither sweat this, nor change anything, unless you see pressure signs, which you do not, you say. Enjoy shooting the 'bee and worry not about the folks who don't bother to actually test their data before they publish it.
Click to expand...

So the bottom line is Robert needs to PAY for a book.... Are we sure that is an option Dub? Tighter than skin on a hotdog comes to mind! :lol:
 
barthowes":1ujg9ghk said:
while i ponder a little longer, you started the post asking about freebore as the title and first sentence state, then only talk about possibly being over pressure due to being over max powder weight and the discrepancy in new and old data. in case you don't know this i say : Freebore is the distance between where the bullet in you loaded cartridge is and the lands. The more freebore a rifle has the more the ability to seat bullets out farther. Each gun is different even of the same make and model.
Click to expand...
And the freebore can and will have an influence on pressures. My BIL has 2 257 bees , a vangard and a sendero the vanguard has the long Bee free bore the Remmy sendero has considerably less. Even though he shoots the same bullet and weight in each his two loads are quite different . As such he goes thru great pains in keeping them seperate.
 
My guess, without being positive, is that QL has to assume no freebore when calculating loads for Weatherby magnum cartridges because they have not way of knowing if these are going to be fired in a Mark V chamber, or a Mark X barrelled action chamber. So the lawyer's win on this one. The QL listings that I have seen, at least for the .340 Bee, are pretty close in maximum load to what I was able to load with a chrono.

I use the old IMR 7828 data sheet from Weatherby for loading. Since I use IMR 7828 SSC for loading Weatherby and have found that these listed IMR loads are max!!! for Weatherby Mark V's. These loads are from back when handloaders had hair on their chest and Weatherby's max load listing in my experience, is max, at least for IMR 7828!
 
Charlie... that data sheet is probably the "ad" I was referring to in my original post.... I seem to remember you sending me a pdf of it a year or two ago when you hooked me on 7828 (and thank you for that, by the way!).

Scotty... Believe it or not... I do buy manuals every once in a while LOL! Not often though! I just checked my Nosler 6 manual (which I unfortunately bought sometime in the middle of last year before I knew 7 was almost upon us). Dub is right. That is the only manual I have currently that lists a charge that high. My new edition of the Lee manual says 75.0-80.5 with MINIMUM OAL of 3.560. The old edition I have photocopied lists the load from 79.3-86.0 with the same minimum OAL spec. Oddly, the Nosler 6 manual lists the the same OAL spec but indeed lists it a maximum per SAAMI. That is one SAAMI spec that I might choose to ignore... especially considering that spec is listed the same as a general guideline for all chosen bullet weights and powders. I know people tend to dump on Lee, but I do love their Modern Reloading, if for nothing else, for the fact they will offer various minimum OALs... not just per bullet weight, but sometimes for different powders used within a given bullet weight.... but I digress.

Chronograph... that's what started this. I was shooting some 220gr gamekings with 4831 over my Chrony and was sorely disappointed in the velocities and figured I'd go with some 180s anyways. I believe that is when Charlie directed me to 7828 and haven't given it a second thought till this thread. The last couple times I took the RoyToy out, however, I didn't take my Chrony so I haven't yet gauged what type gains I have made or if I'm hitting published velocities. Definitely need to smack me around for that one! And oddly, I'm not necessarily a speed guy. But I do own two Wannabees (my other is a 257). My concern over velocity stemmed from the fact that I also own a M77 in 300WM that I dearly love and won't give up... and as long as I am also in love with this Weatherby (which gave me a .692" group with those gamekings and seemed to be submoa in general) then I want it also to give me a reason to view it differently than the M77 and a velocity gain is where it's at (as arguably small as it may be). So when my Chrony spit out velocities for my Wby that my WinMag would not have to work too hard to produce, I figured a change was in order.

And Barthowes... no worries at all. We don't all know one another here and certainly may not know how much someone else may or may not know. I'm 37 and have been around reloading all my life but have only really gotten into it over the last 5 years or so... so I'd say I'm somewhat seasoned but do have plenty to learn yet. In reference to freebore, I'm a bit new to RoyToys so my understanding of freebore may be a bit limited and/or wrong. But as I understand it, the long freebore found in Weatherbys allows some distance for the bullet to travel (dissipating some pressure) before hitting the lands. Putting two comparable rounds in two different rifles with significantly different freebore would effectively create two significantly different pressures... hence the source of my question.... I didn't want to be loading a hot round designed for a Weatherby length freebore into a rifle that could have, potentially, little to no freebore... seating depth dependent, of course.
 
dubyam":2n24yc2n said:
To answer the basic question, yes, the Vanguard does have the "standard" Weatherby freebore.
Click to expand...
if chambered in a Weatherby cartridge.

They do NOT have increased freebore in standard cartridges such as 30--06, 300 Win Mag, 243, etc.

Patrick
 
And by the way, thank you to everyone for chiming in on this one. It has been putting my mind to ease. Like I said, I wasn't seeing any red flags from my spent rounds, but thinking about a Wannabee vs a Mark V planted a seed of doubt.
 
Dr. Vette":2n87o8o5 said:
dubyam":2n87o8o5 said:
To answer the basic question, yes, the Vanguard does have the "standard" Weatherby freebore.
Click to expand...
if chambered in a Weatherby cartridge.

They do NOT have increased freebore in standard cartridges such as 30--06, 300 Win Mag, 243, etc.

Patrick
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification, Patrick. I should have mentioned that - as not all will understand it as being inherent in the statement "standard Weatherby freebore" that I meant for Weatherby magnum chamberings. It's one of those odd little details of which a lot of people lose track, that changing the freebore of a cartridge from the SAAMI spec for the reamer makes it no longer the same cartridge designation. For instance, if I took a 270Win and lengthened the freebore by .25", I'd no longer have a 270Win, I'd have some sort of 270dubyam wildcat. Not that it'd be a big hit, because it wouldn't gain much if anything over the factory round. But it would, by definition, be a wildcat. Good catch!
 
I don't think you need to worry much about the strength of that Vanguard action, M3. If I recall correctly from a video I watched, the Howa 1500 action (Vanguard action) held together where most others disintegrated to varying degrees, when a shot was put down a plugged barrel. The actual video of the Howa is no longer available, but here is the chart showing it performed the best of all the rifles tested:

http://www.testfakta.se/sport_fritid/article15272.ece

There are some videos available, but it appears the website has a glitch as the Mannlicher video is linked three times, and the Remington and Howa videos are not linked:

http://www.testfakta.se/sport_fritid/article14658.ece

It's educational, for sure, to see the differences.
 
I went back and looked at Lyman #44 Manual (1967) just out of curiosity about what the used then. The then current load for 1967 was: 73.0 grs IMR 4350, @ 2808 for the 220 grain bullet. The 180 gr Weatherby .300 Mag load was 79.0 gr, IMR 4350, @ 3194 fps. My how times have changed! The currrent 180 grain load for IMR 4350 in the .300 Weatherby is only listed at 73.0 grains and just over 3000 fps! Looking at these old loading manuals, I am surprised that I still have all my fingers, considering my age and how long I have been loading?
 
I can't believe Lyman #47 is from 1967! I have #48, and it's copyrighted 2002. Lyman took their time between 47 and 48, huh? And 49 is out now, so they didn't waste much time in between 48 and 49...
 
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