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 Post subject: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbine
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:25 pm 
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These 2 bullets weigh the same... but the similarity ends there.

The Swift bullet is .726" long, the XTP is .673"... the nose of the bullet is shorter on the Swift, so it seats way deeper into the case.

The XTP seated to the front of the cannelure will have an overall length of around 1.585" (depending on case trim length)... the Swift seated to the front of the cannelure is 1.54", which is too short I think.

Looking at pictures of Federal ammo using the Swift bullet, they are crimped just over the bottom of the cannelure, which comes out to 1.565" overall length.

I have some test rounds loaded with the Swift bullets and 19, 19.5, 20, and 20.5 grains of Accurate 4100 to see what the speeds are over the chrono tomorrow... trying to find where the top end is.

Thats all I got for now... more to come tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:27 pm
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Looking forward to your results so that I can try them in my Marlin!


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:06 pm 
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OK... first things first when I don't have specific load data to work with.

Calibrate QuickLoad to the Henry.... fired one of my steel banging loads through the rifle then measured its expanded capacity using water... QL's default for the 41 Magnum is 35.5 grains, the measured capacity of my Henry BBSC is 36.8 grains.

Calibrate QuickLoad to the bullets... the default bullet length for the Swift bullet is .730", actual measured length of my batch is .726".

The default for the Hornady bullet is .617", actual measured length of my batch is .673".

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:07 pm 
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This is the Swift bullet with Accurate 4100 powder

19 grains....QL predicted 1,631 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,615 fps.

19.5 grains...QL predicted 1,672 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,670 fps.

20 grains....QL predicted 1,714 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,678 fps.

20.5 grains...QL predicted 1,755 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,716 fps.

I'm thinking 20 or 20.5 grains is gonna be max for Accurate 4100 and the 210 grain Swift A-Frame... gonna load 5 each and see what the averages look like.


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:09 pm 
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Looks like 20.3 grains of 4100 is maxed out with the 210 Swift...

1,705 fps 10 shot average... best I can figure this is running around 35,300 psi, but I don't have pressure equipment to test for sure so that is nothing more than a SWAG.

SAAMI says 36,000 psi maximum average pressure, 37,100 psi maximum probable lot average (maximum for a specific lot of ammo), and 38,800 psi maximum probable sample average (max for any given round in a lot).

Stopping at 35,300 psi seems a reasonable safe limit...Accurate powders load data for this powder also stops in that range.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:11 pm 
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The Swift is a longer bullet, smaller combustion chamber (usable case capacity), smaller powder charge for the same pressure... all adds up to a little lower velocity.

Muzzle velocity 1,705 fps.
ES was 30, SD was 12.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:12 pm 
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20.5 grains of 4100 under a 210 XTP...

1,731 fps
SD 15
ES 42

21 grains will be max with this combo...at about 35,700 psi (~1,750 fps).

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Shot from 20 feet into gallon jugs of water....

XTP muzzle velocity...1,731 fps
A-Frame muzzle velocity...1,705 fps

XTP destroyed 2 jugs and stopped in the 3rd one.
A-Frame destroyed 2 jugs and stopped in the 5th one.

XTP expanded (flattened?) to .800" and had a retained weight of 174 grains (83%).

A-Frame expanded to .610" and had a retained weight of 187 grains (89%).

Its pretty clear which is which...lol.
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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:27 pm 

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Interesting results!
Have you shot any groups for accuracy?


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:11 am 
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Not yet... going to do that today.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Sight in complete...

It's a shooter, shoots both loads I've worked with here to the same point of aim which will be handy.

The following picture is 10 rounds at 50 yards using both loads (5 each), from the sitting position, no shooting rest other than my elbows...I know it looks like only 9 holes, but all 10 are in there somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:04 pm 
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I did some individual groups with the loads...
no difference in accuracy between the 2 bullets that I can see.

I shot both on steel out to 200 yards, and paper at 50 and 100.

I think from a solid rest the rifle will do at least 1 inch at 50 yards...I forgot to take my Bulls Bag today so I was shooting from sitting, on the ground, same way shoot when hunting.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Nice work Lynn. That XTP should make for a great WT deer bullet delivering a lot of energy into the animal for a quick clean kill. The A Frame would be a good bear and hog bullet but you could also use it for follow up shots on deer if needed since it's printing to the same POI. Pretty good accuracy too!

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:10 pm 
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JD338 wrote:
Nice work Lynn. That XTP should make for a great WT deer bullet delivering a lot of energy into the animal for a quick clean kill. The A Frame would be a good bear and hog bullet but you could also use it for follow up shots on deer if needed since it's printing to the same POI. NoPretty good accuracy too!

JD338
That certainly would work but I think I'm just gonna hunt everything big (deer, bear, hogs, etc.) with the A-Frame bullets and use the XTP's for steel and coyotes and such.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:25 pm 
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That'll work. You should be able to punch through both shoulders of a WT deer.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:27 pm 
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That's what I'm hoping for... I'm hunting everything up close these days, I feel better using bullets I know, without a doubt, will hold up if I have to hit bone.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:50 pm 

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Looks like a couple of good loads looking for some action in the field on game!
Great job and great info! Thanks!

Any other noticeable differences between the two loads?
For example, how they fed and cases extracted? Or how they felt when shooting?

I need to look up the energy figures for those loads...


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:58 pm 

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Hornady's ballistic calculator says that 210 gr XTP @ 1731 fps
Ballistic Results
RANGE (YDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB) TRAJECTORY (IN)
0 1731 1397 -1.5
50 1549 1118 0
100 1386 895 -2.2
150 1246 724 -8.8
200 1135 601 -21.1

This gives 5 ft-lbs more energy @ 50 yards than at the muzzle of a 10" barrelled revolver according to Hornady's own site for their loaded ammunition (now discontinued)

210 gr A-Frame @ 1705 fps
Ballistic Results
RANGE (YDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB) TRAJECTORY (IN)
0 1705 1355 -1.5
50 1501 1050 0
100 1323 816 -2.4
150 1179 648 -9.8
200 1073 537 -23.4

This gives 66 ft-lbs more energy @ 50 yards than at the muzzle of a 10" barrelled revolver according to Swift's own site for their loaded ammunition


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:08 am 
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Blkram wrote:
Looks like a couple of good loads looking for some action in the field on game!
Great job and great info! Thanks!

Any other noticeable differences between the two loads?
For example, how they fed and cases extracted? Or how they felt when shooting?

I need to look up the energy figures for those loads...
No other differences that I noticed.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:01 pm 
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The ballistician from Swift called me back today... he hasn't shot 4100 in the 41 mag yet, but max he recommends with 296/110 is 20 grains.

Given that 4100 is slightly faster burning than 110, 20.3 grains of 4100 is likely a little over the limit.

19.5 grains of 4100 should be OK... I'm gonna try 296 when I get back home since I have a pound of it already.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum carbi
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:01 pm 
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Something is not adding up...

Swift says they maxed out with various powders (110, MP-300, Lil Gun) at around 1,430 fps from a 10 inch barrel.

Everywhere else you look that has pressure numbers with the load data is maxed out at 1,600+ fps with various jacketed 210 grain bullets.

I've went over data from Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Lee, and Hodgden... every one hits 1,600+ fps with 210 grain jacketed bullets, from a 10 inch barrel.

The Swift bullet is longer than the XTP, by .053", but that isn't enough to slow it down to that degree.

I'm not sure what the length of the Nosler bullet is, but I expect it's pretty close to the XTP.

I'm inclined to believe my load of 20.3 grains of 4100 at 1,705 fps from the 16.5 inch barrel is safe and then some.

Because I know from experience that 20 fps per inch is an accurate estimate for velocity per inch for barrels between 4 and 20 inches long with both the 41 and 44 mag.

Using that, my load would be 1,575 fps from a 10 inch barrel....66 fps below Accurate Powders data for a max load of 21.1 grains of 4100 with the Nosler bullet... that also applies within a few fps for Hodgden, Lyman, Lee, etc...I can see a .053" longer bullet costing 66 fps, the numbers fit.

Use that info however you want, I believe my load is safe...



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