6.5 Creedmoor blood trails ?

[gldprimr]

I have spent most of the past few years deer hunting with a 6.5 Grendel in my CZ-527.

I’m posting the question as a couple of friends are switching back to the 308 Winchester cartridge for their deer hunting as they have found blood trails with the 6.5 Creedmoor to be poor. I am a bit surprised by this as I’ve had no issues with blood trails using my 6.5 Grendel though I will say that they are using Hornady 143 gr. ELD-X Precision Hunter ammunition in their 6.5 Creedmoor rifles while I am using Nosler 129 gr. ABLR in my 6.5 Grendel. I have found the 129 gr. ABLR to leave good blood trails with no issue following it in those cases where there was much of a death dash.

If any of you have used the 6.5 Creedmoor 143 gr. Precision Hunter have you found it to not leave a good blood trail ?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[Blkram]

I have only taken one animal with the 143 gr ELD-X in my 6.5 Creedmoor; a young bull moose facing on at 20 yards. He turned and stumbled, and fell about 5 yards from where shot. As the bullet could not be found within the thoracic cavity, there was just some blood from the entrance wound in the snow. And blood trailing wasn't necessary.

While just a sample of one, where I wasn't able to find the bullet within the mess of destroyed lungs, I found that the bullet appeared to be more frangible than I liked, as it swiped some jacket off on the edge of the ribs as it entered, and did not make it to the diaphragm without encountering any heavy bone. The tissue damage of the lungs was massive, suggesting that the expansion after swiping the rib, was massive, and therefore limited penetration.

An interesting note that I have found with the Hornady Precision Hunter ammunition I have tested in a couple different cartridges, it has proven to be slower than advertised. For the 6.5 CM the velocity is advertised as 2700 fps in a 24" barrel; I am only getting 2510 fps in my 24" barrel. (It is accurate, producing 100 yard, 3-shot groups of 0.494".) The 6.5 PRC with the 143 gr ELD-X is advertised as 2960 fps in a 24" barrel, and I am getting 2837 fps in my 24" barrel. (again, accuracy is good at 100 yard, 3-shot groups of 0.762".)
Other ammo in my 6.5 CM rifle has proven to be at, or higher than advertised velocities. For example, the Federal 130 gr Terminal Ascent is advertised at 2800 fps and I am getting 2855 fps in my rifle.

The other 5 animals (red stag, fallow buck, arapawa rams and caribou) taken with the Creedmoor have been with the Federal 130 gr Terminal Ascent ammo. All one shot kills, with complete pass throughs, from 40 to 296 yards. The fallow buck travelled the furthest, and mostly when it jumped at being hit, it fell down the ravine slope and came to rest about 15 yards from where hit. Again, no blood trailing.

 

[PJGunner]

"For the 6.5 CM the velocity is advertised as 2700 fps in a 24" barrel; I am only getting 2510 fps in my 24" barrel."

That doesn't surprise me. I've run several factory cartridges over the chronograph with sometimes disappointing results.
The 175 gr. 7x57 rounf advertised at 2440 FPY only did 2210 FPS from a 23" barrel. The load cost me a deer back in 1973. I sold the rifle but for some reason kept the ammo. I built another 7x57 years later and ran the 1973 ammo along with some fresh ammo with the same weight bullet for a comparison. There was virtually no difference in velocity. I have also compared .308 Win. angainst 30-06, both loads using the 180 gr. Power Point bullet and the .308 Win. was all of 20 FPS faster than the 30-06. Both rifles had 22" barrels.

I think this all boils down to SAAMI setting the Maximum Allowable Pressure (MAP) for a cartridge. Sometimes the factory that brings out a new round decided that the cartridge should not go over a certain pressure level and SAAMI goes along with the suggestion. Two cases that come to mind are the .280 Rem. and .35 Whelen where Remington is alleged to have specified that the MAP was to be no greater than that allowed for the 30-06. It's a well known fact both cartridges can be loaded to the same level as the .270 Win. but the SAAM specs say no. The 7x57 is drastically underloaded because SAAMI believes certain older rifles cannot take proper pressure levels. I can agree up to a point regarding the Remington rolling block single shots as many are marked 7x57 but have a different chamber while others have standard chambers. I'm kind of pn the fence when it comes to the 18983/95 Mausers. Personally, I think those made by Mauser should be OK but am a bit skeptical about those from the Oviedo arsenal in Spain. The ones date 191 may be OK but I don't know. Anything earlier is suspect.

A cartridge can be advertised to give a certain velocity which is based on the SAAMI MAP level. The factories making that ammo will try to get close to that velocity level but are restricted by whatever the pressure in their brass is. Loaded rounds are pulled randomly from production and tested for pressure and probably accuracy as well. if any of the test groups show a pressure higher than the MAP, the whole lot is scapped and components salvaged where possible. That slower velocity is just company CYA.
Paul B.

 

[JD338]

My wife has a Kimber M84 Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor and has shot a few deer with the 129 ABLR. The first one made it 30-40 yds with a very good blood trail. The rest were all DRT. I have a couple of buddies that have shot deer with 6.5 CM's using 120 gr Sierra GK and Hornady 143 gr ELD-X. All of them were DRT. My conclusion is if you put the bullet center mass lungs, they are DRT. YMMD

JD338

 

[gldprimr]

Thanks for your replies. My friend & his son have recovered all the game they’ve shot with the 6.5 Creedmoor so no lost game just not as much in the way of pass throughs.

I get 2600 fps with my 6.5 Grendel 129 gr. ABLR load using Shooters World Match Rifle so not giving up too much to the Creedmoor particularly as I’m hunting closer ranges in Mississippi.

 

[Turpentine]

I have spent most of the past few years deer hunting with a 6.5 Grendel in my CZ-527.

I’m posting the question as a couple of friends are switching back to the 308 Winchester cartridge for their deer hunting as they have found blood trails with the 6.5 Creedmoor to be poor. I am a bit surprised by this as I’ve had no issues with blood trails using my 6.5 Grendel though I will say that they are using Hornady 143 gr. ELD-X Precision Hunter ammunition in their 6.5 Creedmoor rifles while I am using Nosler 129 gr. ABLR in my 6.5 Grendel. I have found the 129 gr. ABLR to leave good blood trails with no issue following it in those cases where there was much of a death dash.

If any of you have used the 6.5 Creedmoor 143 gr. Precision Hunter have you found it to not leave a good blood trail ?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

I'm late to the party here but I will share my personal experience. I kill a lot of deer with the Grendel, Creedmore, and 6.5-06. I shoot deer depredation permits and also hogs and don't want to post numbers but it's a lot. I personally think that the 143eldx is a bit too hard at Creedmore speed to offer adequate expansion. Particularly at distance when shooting behind the shoulder where there is little resistance. That bullet is better for shoulder shots again particularly when distance is involved. I personally shoot 123 eldm in Grendel and Creedmore, a few 129 ablr in Grendel, some 140 eldm's in Creedmore, and 140 but mainly 147 eldm in my 6.5-06. I primarily shoot mid to high shoulder on deer, Head, neck, or behind the shoulder on hogs. I rarely need a blood trail. Most fall on the spot. Those that do run generally leave a very substantial short blood trail. Some high shoulder hits don't exit with the 123s. They stop in the off side hide. Generally however, high shoulder hits require no blood trail. The 140 and 147 will exit and leave a golf ball to baseball sized hole. That's on kills from 75 to 895 yards with many kills in the 400-700 yard range. For the 308 i shoot 150 accubonds or 168 ballistic tips or A Max. Most of the deer I shoot are doe in the 90 to 120 pound range. For bucks up to 200 pounds, the 123s, particularly 123sst are fine in the Grendel. But for the Creedmore the 120 ballistic tip works. It seems to be a tough little bullet. Or I would step up to your 129 ablr or 130 eldm or other bullets in that weight class or move on up to the 140s or even the 147 but I am no fan of the 143eldx from the Creedmore on behind the shoulder shots. The 140 ballistic tip or 130/140 eldm would be my choice depending on the body weights you are dealing with in the Creed. The 143 eldx bullet needs more velocity than the Creed can give at longer range or you need to hit heavy bone/cns to really make it work for you. That bullet needs some resistance to work like it should. Way to many people in my neck of the woods experienced problems when putting the 143 behind the shoulder. You can't see a deer run after you shoot here most of the time. It's too thick. Water, briars, swamps, gators, snakes, etc make tracking difficult so I do my best to hit them in a place where no tracking will be required.

 

[xphunter]

The 147 ELD-M will probably give the closest results to the 308 Winchester.
Having said that the 308 Win with 168 ELD-M's will probably kill just a bit faster the than the Creed with the 147's.
Dead is till dead, but those who tend to kill a lot with both cartridges, with the bullets I listed, have noticed this trend

 

[Turpentine]

The 147 ELD-M will probably give the closest results to the 308 Winchester.
Having said that the 308 Win with 168 ELD-M's will probably kill just a bit faster the than the Creed with the 147's.
Dead is till dead, but those who tend to kill a lot with both cartridges, with the bullets I listed, have noticed this trend

The 308 that I shoot the most is my 1 in 10 twist Ar. It shoots 150s like buckshot patterns but throw most any 165 or 168 grain bullet in it with AR Comp powder and it will flat out drive tacks. Except for the 168 eldm. They shoot OK but not great. I mostly shoot 168 Amax in it running about 2640fps. They do a good job. For heavier deer or big hogs I shoot 165 Accubonds or 168 Ballistic tips in that gun. No problems there. The 308 bolt action tends to like 150 accubonds at 2900fps or 168 eldm's at 2740 or so. Both with Varget powder. Admittedly I haven't shot this gun much since I built the 6.5-06 and all kills with it have been with the 150 accubonds. I never had any problem putting deer on the ground with those. I have taken the 168 eldm's to 1000 yards quite a few times. The 6.5-06 running 2940 with 147s just makes things so much simpler at long distances and retains energy very well. It hits like a hammer .

 

[xphunter]

Understood.
Every barrel is different.
The 168 A-Max opens a tad slower than the 168 ELD-M...Or you could say the 168 M opens quicker than the A-Max.

I get it that the 6.5 Creed with the 147M has less recoil and better ballistics than the 168 M or A-Max in the 308.
Personally, I prefer less recoil and better ballistics, if I am shooting at distance.

I have also seen several 308's with the A-Max and the M go to a mile on steel.

 

[xphunter]

I have spent most of the past few years deer hunting with a 6.5 Grendel in my CZ-527.

I’m posting the question as a couple of friends are switching back to the 308 Winchester cartridge for their deer hunting as they have found blood trails with the 6.5 Creedmoor to be poor. I am a bit surprised by this as I’ve had no issues with blood trails using my 6.5 Grendel though I will say that they are using Hornady 143 gr. ELD-X Precision Hunter ammunition in their 6.5 Creedmoor rifles while I am using Nosler 129 gr. ABLR in my 6.5 Grendel. I have found the 129 gr. ABLR to leave good blood trails with no issue following it in those cases where there was much of a death dash.

If any of you have used the 6.5 Creedmoor 143 gr. Precision Hunter have you found it to not leave a good blood trail ?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

I know about more than a handful of deer that have been taken with the Creed factory ammo with the 143 ELD-X.
These kills were around the 100 yard range mark.
The X did okay in these circumstances.

The preference would be the 147 ELD-M between the two bullets.
Not a fan of the 123 or 130 ELD-M though, as there were not always consistent exits.
I like the 140 ELD-M on deer sized game as well

 

[Balthazar]

I'm late to the party here but I will share my personal experience. I kill a lot of deer with the Grendel, Creedmore, and 6.5-06. I shoot deer depredation permits and also hogs and don't want to post numbers but it's a lot

Just out of curiosity, what becomes of the meat?

 

[grry10]

You didn't say at what ranges your friends are taking game. That could impact their blood trails. The 6.5 Creedmoor is inherently an accurate cartridge and many are using it for long range target shooting, but like all cartridges used to harvest game, each has its limitations. There is more than just seeing it and being able to hit it.

 

[xphunter]

You didn't say at what ranges your friends are taking game. That could impact their blood trails. The 6.5 Creedmoor is inherently an accurate cartridge and many are using it for long range target shooting, but like all cartridges used to harvest game, each has its limitations. There is more than just seeing it and being able to hit it.

Are you asking me or the OP?

 

[TackDriver284]

I never had any issues finding blood trails with the 6.5 Creedmoor. I have used 120 grain Ballistic Tips, 143 ELD-X and the 147 ELDM, all deer dropped fast and a few have run off with double lung shots, and never went far. Blood trails were good, and I have used the 178 ELDM with my .308, and very good blood trails as well. Both rifles have made complete exits each time. Can't be happier than that.
Pic was a buck which was double lunged, it was slightly quartered broadside at 200 yards roughly, with a 178 ELDM in a 308.

 

[Turpentine]

Just out of curiosity, what becomes of the meat?

For a long time we were not allowed to touch a carcass other than to tag it. Lots of it gets deboned and used by my family, friends and folks that I know need the meat and can't afford to buy it. I have recently been contacted by a guy that runs a hunters for the hungry program. The deer will be picked up and processed by a participating processor and then donated to the needy, orphanages etc.

I cannot tell you that all of it will be used. That would be an outright lie. I do depredation differently than most. I do not go to many different fields every night spot lighting as I found that to be very counterproductive. I use thermal and generally will sit in only one field for 4 hours per night. My son will sit a different field. Generally doing it this way we do not have to go back. Or may have to go back once more. That way the remaining deer aren't affected as much and neighbors don't hear shots and see lights every night. Only does are shot and we try to shoot them as close to the edge of the field as possible which aids in retrieval. It's counterproductive to have to tear up crops to retrieve an animal. Last year many of the deer were absolutely covered in ticks and visibly were in poor health. Fire ants can be another big hindrance in retrieval efforts as they can cover a carcass before we get there. Another big issue is coyotes. I've had coyotes on a carcass within three minutes of the shot. We usually shoot them too if possible. But many farmers don't want them shot because they help control the deer population.
Unfortunately, what I do is controversial but necessary. We have a massive deer problem. Plus we have a hog problem. The hunters that hunt the property simply will not shoot enough does. Last year the main farmer I shoot for received around $20,000.00 in hunting lease payments and lost well over $100,000.00 in crop damage from deer and hogs. I pulled into one 20 acre bean field that the beans had just come up in last year. At 5:00 Pm in broad daylight there were at least 70 deer there. Many of the deer I killed there were extremely skinny, ribs showing, and several were actually stunted. Worn out teeth and 75 pounds on the hoof. Clemson university has done an extensive study of our deer population recently and in some areas estimated 300 deer per square mile. The head of the program met with farmers and hunters just last summer and urged us to take out even more. It's a very big issue.

 

[Turpentine]

I know about more than a handful of deer that have been taken with the Creed factory ammo with the 143 ELD-X.
These kills were around the 100 yard range mark.
The X did okay in these circumstances.

The preference would be the 147 ELD-M between the two bullets.
Not a fan of the 123 or 130 ELD-M though, as there were not always consistent exits.
I like the 140 ELD-M on deer sized game as well

Many of these deer were shot at ranges over 200 yards. But some as short as 100. Most of my kills with depredation are from 150 yards to 450 yards with the Grendel and the Creedmore, 400-900 with the 6.5-06. I prefer the Grendel and Creedmore for the reduced recoil and quicker transition to another target. Our deer are not large bodied. There's not a lot of resistance there on broadside shots. The eldx likes some resistance. I prefer ELDMs for everything I do. Except for my one rifle that likes the Amax. If I'm strictly after hogs I'll use a little heavier bullet. For depredation I'm not concerned with a blood trail and I like the 123eldm in the Creed and 123 eldm or SST in the Grendel because it is very accurate with them. But I shoot shoulder. 90% or more of the deer I shoot simply drop. If you want a blood trail every time go heavier per caliber with the eldm. You may not need the trail but you'll more than likely have one.

 

[xphunter]

All of that sounds right to me.