22-250 Range results= Needs work!

[joed49]

My friend and I both recently bought Remington 700 SPS VS rifles in .22-250, his is blue and mine is stainless. Far as I'm concerned I'll never buy another Remington. The stock is junk and the Xmark trigger is horrible. I couldn't adjust the trigger to 4 lb, new it broke at 6 lbs.

In all the years Remington has been in business they've learned nothing about free floating a barrel. So, I ordered a B&C stock and Timney trigger. The group size has gone down but I'm still not thrilled with this rifle.

I did have my heart set on a Winchester 70 Stealth but they aren't making those anymore. Presently I have one in .308 and it is the most accurate rifle I ever bought new.

Reloading the .22-250 has been an experience. After loading for 34 years the .22-250 humbled me. Seating the bullets near the lands produced 3" groups. I tried different powders, primers and bullets, nothing helped. Factory ammo produced 3/4" groups. I was stumped.

On one of the forums someone mentioned to me that their rifle refused to shoot accurately unless they kept the length to what was specified in the loading manuals. I tried that, groups sizes shrank to 3/4" and no more fliers.

I'm still working on loads for this cartridge. I no longer use H380 as I found it to be way to temperature sensitive for my liking. Switching to Varget has proven to be a better choice.

One other thing I've noticed with the .22-250 is some pretty big differences in loading data. My Nosler book (which is my favorite) lists 36.0 gr max of Varget with a 50 gr bullet while my Lyman lists 38.0 gr as max. Who do you believe? RL-15 is another that shows wide variations in data. My manuals show charges of around 36 gr as max while Alliant shows 38.1 gr as max.

I've yet to chronograph any of the loads for the .22-250 but I bet I'm going to be disappointed. Always thought this was a high velocity round but it don't look like it with the loads I see in the manuals.

My rifle is new and maybe things will get better. If not I'll part with it and go with something in .243 Win.

 

[DrMike]

joel49,

Welcome to the forum. I'm really sorry to hear about your experience with your Remington 700 SPS rifle. I'm sure it can be made to shoot well. It does sound as if you have taken some steps to make it do so. Seating depth can become critical. The 22-250 is capable of some astounding accuracy. Varget can be a good propellant. I've had some success with H380, producing some fine groups in the 22-250. I have had more success with Benchmark, but especially with IMR4007SSC. It sounds as if the rifle has potential; I'm certain you'll work out the kinks.

 

[joed49]

Drmike, thanks for the encouragement.

On the powder suggestions, I do have Benchmark that I bought for the .223 but have yet to try it. I was looking at load data on the Hodgdon site yesterday and have been thinking of trying it.

I've also been looking at the new IMR powders like 8208 and 4007ssc but can't make a decision on which to try. The 4007 seems to be slower and a better choice.

 

[DrMike]

I believe either of the IMR powders would work for you. I have tried IMR4007SSC with excellent results (0.16 inch groups). I have not tried IMR8208XBR in the 22-250, but I have tried Benchmark and H380 with good success.

 

[baltz526]

Flat base hunting bullets, H414/w760, magnum primers. This is what i found to work best. some bullets to look at are 60gr flatbase hollow point, 55gr flat base spitzer, 63/64gr flate base. Trying to get 50gr boattails at 3800fps to be accurate can be a waste of a lot of powder in some rifles.

 

[joed49]

Well, back from a range trip today. The temp was 60 with wind but not to bad. I learned a few things with the rifle today.

Round #1. I had 20 rounds loaded with the Sierra 52 gr match bullet and 36.5 gr of Varget. This load produced 3 shot groups with bullets touching. The lesson learned here is load manuals lie. According to the manual this should have been going pretty fast. Every shot fired today was over a CED chronograph. The best I could do with this load was 3450 fps. I used a seating depth of 3.325. Accuracy was good but velocity disappointing.

Round #2 was the Nosler 50 gr bt with 37.5 gr of Varget and a depth of 3.250. Accuracy was terrible at over 1". Surprising, I expected better from Nosler. The velocity was close to 3700 fps. No matter how I tried I could not bring the groups down. I may play with the seating depth seeing as how the shorter depth above produced good results.

Round #3 was the Sierra 52 gr match bullet with 38.0 gr of Varget once again seated to 3.225. Groups ran slightly larger then round #1 but could be covered easily with a dime. Velocity started getting up there and hovered around 3690 fps. This load scared me at first seeing as how so many load manuals show loads of around 36.5 gr as max. This was from my Lyman manual and I thought I'd try it. I honestly expected the chrono to show 4000 fps but was surprised that it is still a fairly mild load. There were no pressure signs at all. I will probably use this load for groundhog hunting.

I've learned my rifle likes the bullet to jump to the lands rather then be seated out. I also learned as the barrel heated up velocities also went up. I kind of expected this to some degree but letting the rifle sit for 30 minutes did not produce the low velocities of the first shots.

Lots of people suggested the Sierra 52 gr match and they are right in choosing this bullet from my shooting.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Joed:
I must chastise you for your workup techniques. Jumping 1.5 grains in from 36.5 to 38gr of Varget at one time, especially when 38gr is above max is several books, is unwise. It's techniques like these that lead to blown primers, stuck bolts, and cases welded to the bolt face. Anytime you are scared before you pull the trigger on a reload, it's a sign you are failing to take the necessary percautions, so you can stop before pressure levels get out of hand.

In addition, on the Noslers, you tested one powder charge. One charge doesn't tell you much. 1/2 grain more or less, and you might be shooting bug hole groups.

Here's what I would of done:
Hodgdon's list 34.5gr as the starting load for a 50gr bullet.
I would of loaded
34.5
35
35.5
36
36.5
37
37.5

Load 3-4 each and shoot for groups, starting with the lowest charge first, checking every single case and primer along the way for pressure signs. If some other books listed stiffer loads, I might try them in the future, but I never push it on the first outing with a new set of components.

I also notice you didn't mention what Brass and Primers you uses. Brass can have HUGE effects of pressure. Changing brands of brass can have the same effect of pressure as addiing or subtracting a full grain of powder. In addition, in some instances changing primers can add or subtract a full 100fps.

Unless you want your new nick name to be one-eye, until you understand your componets alot better, I suggest a bit more caution.

 

[DrMike]

Good advice from AS. Especially on cartridges which have smaller case volumes, you are always well advised to work up in smaller increments. One half grain in a charge of 34.5 grains is 1.4% increment, which can translate out to significant accuracy changes. Also, the pressure curve tends to change exponentially rather than arithmetically. I would focus on accuracy rather than velocity. There is more reach than most of us can take advantage of in many cartridges.

 

[joed49]

Sorry about that, I forgot to mention that I have been working on these loads for about 2 weeks. Kind of like walking in on the middle of a movie wasn't it?

The loads for the Sierra 52 gr bullet have all proven safe in my rifle with no signs of high pressure even at 38.0 gr of Varget. That load is out of my Lyman manual. Seems weird that it is much higher then any of my other manuals but it works fine out of my rifle as well as a friend's. For all the testing with Varget and 52 gr Sierra match there were 2 combinations that gave good results. Number 1 being the 36.5 gr load and second the 38.0 gr load. Sunday was final testing of the two and they are quite close for accuracy results.

The 50 gr Nosler bt was further testing of bullets in the 50 gr range. For some reason I haven't had great results with the 50 gr bullets and I'm still trying to find the right combination. I believe it is either a seating depth issue or I need a faster powder. The 37.5 gr load used here was the best shooting from the last range session. I wanted to retry this combination hoping it was just a bad day for my shooting and not the load. It was the load.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Ok, thanks for the update Joed. I feel a lot better now.
It sounds like you use the same final stage that I do, test what looks promising with a full box just to make sure.....

In reality it's not suprising they are a grain and a half different.
Different brass, different primers, different chambers, different throats, even different rifling twist can all have an effect on pressure. Even different LOTS of the same brand of brass can effect pressure. The consider that different lots of powder can very up to 3-4% and still be in spec. Change the Ojive on a bullet just a little bit, and you change the bearing surface, changing the pressure. Start stacking these variations together, and it's real easy to see how different books can have a 6% different max powder charge.

 

[joed49]

Soon as I read your reply yesterday I realized I left a few chapters out. For all the combinations I've tried with this cartridge and rifle the only one that has worked is the 52 gr bullet. I guess I expected a little more variation it what the .22-250 would shoot. Hate to admit it but this is the hardest cartridge to reload that I have ever dealt with.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

As you can image we have seen some interesting loading techniques on the forum, so I appologise if I over reacted. Glad you are safe, and finding a good load. If you are not now, at some point you may wish to try some bench rest primers.

Here's what works for me in my 788:

Win Bras
52gr Sierra MK
38.5gr W760
WMRP
Shoots bug holes.

Dad's 700 like a little more powder, I just don't remember how much.

I've tested all the way up to 42 grains, but the groups open up.

Same as above but with 34gr of BL(c)2 also shoots nice groups.
In both instances, those ball powders like the magnum primers.

 

[ScreaminEagle]

Soon as I read your reply yesterday I realized I left a few chapters out. For all the combinations I've tried with this cartridge and rifle the only one that has worked is the 52 gr bullet. I guess I expected a little more variation it what the .22-250 would shoot. Hate to admit it but this is the hardest cartridge to reload that I have ever dealt with.

Thanks for all the info. I'm using sierra 52 grainers now so I'm sure I can work something up. I'll post my results soon.

 

[CAhunter]

joed Have you tried the Vmax with h380 or varget?? They seem to work well in my brothers 22-250 and win brass.

 

[joed49]

I tried the Vmax 55 gr and they were OK but not great. I was using them with H380 but I learned one thing about H380, if you intend to shoot all year in OH stay away from ball powders. Every month the POI would change with the temp. In Dec bullets were hitting 3" lower then July. That's why the switch to Varget.

I use Varget in my .308 and it has been a top performer. My only complaint with it is as noted in the .22-250, I can't seem to get velocity out of it unless I'm at max or over. Several of my friends have the same experience with Varget.

The only bullet I've found that shoots with any degree of accuracy in my 700 VS is the Sierra 52 gr match, and I hate HP bullets for varmint hunting.

The .22-250 has been the worst cartridge I've ever loaded. If I seat a bullet out further then 2.350 accuracy falls apart. I thought I was losing my mind loading for this cartridge. My loads would shoot 3" groups and factory ammo would do 3/4". It wasn't until someone on one of the forums told me his Remington refused to shoot anything over the max length in the manual that things turned good. Sure enough, seating the bullets deeper in the case produced good results. I have the 52 gr match bullets seated to 2.25 and I can cover the group with a dime. I have no idea why? May just be the way the Remingtons are throated.

And the worst part is I didn't want a .22-250, I wanted a Swift. Try and find one of those.

Antelope_Sniper, no offense taken. I actually laughed when I realized I left a few chapters out of the story, you wouldn't believe how much time, powder and bullets I have invested in trying to make this gun shoot.

So far I have tried Hornady 55 gr Vmax (OK but not great), Sierra 55 gr Blitz King (these were very accurate but terrible on ground hogs), Sierra 52 gr Match (the most accurate) and the Nosler 50 gr BT (which so far is a disappointment). I'd bet if I seat the Nosler further in the case it will shoot fine, I've always had great luck with noslers.

I'm already using the Fed BR primers. I can't believe how much time I have invested in loading for this cartridge, it's been humbling.

 

[joed49]

I can certainly understand about the interesting reloading technics. I couldn't believe the last one I just tried to get through someones head last week. They had 3 old containers of very old powder that had changed colors from rust inside the can. Try as I may I could not make that person understand it would make better fertilizer.

 

[ScreaminEagle]

The .22-250 has been the worst cartridge I've ever loaded. If I seat a bullet out further then 2.350 accuracy falls apart. I thought I was losing my mind loading for this cartridge. My loads would shoot 3" groups and factory ammo would do 3/4". It wasn't until someone on one of the forums told me his Remington refused to shoot anything over the max length in the manual that things turned good. Sure enough, seating the bullets deeper in the case produced good results. I have the 52 gr match bullets seated to 2.25 and I can cover the group with a dime.

Man I loaded up all those test rounds 0.010" from the lands thinking that would be the ticket! But that's why I bought the redding comp seater die, so I could accurately adjust seating depth. Thank you again for the info it will be very helpful. I'm using CCI LR primers now, but I have some fed 210 to try as well. I love to reload so trying many things doesn't bother me to much.

 

[joed49]

Man I loaded up all those test rounds 0.010" from the lands thinking that would be the ticket! But that's why I bought the redding comp seater die, so I could accurately adjust seating depth. Thank you again for the info it will be very helpful. I'm using CCI LR primers now, but I have some fed 210 to try as well. I love to reload so trying many things doesn't bother me to much.

That's how I started out with 3" groups seating out to the lands. Drove me nuts for a month as I couldn't figure out what was going on. May work for you, it didn't for me.

Once I went back to max length the gun started to shoot. Now I'm loading under max length and the gun shoots fine. This is the only cartridge I ever experienced this problem with, and on 2 rifles, both Rem 700's, mine and a friend's.