.243 Win Chronograph Data???

[taylorce1]

Well I went out and shot three rounds this morning before the wind came up, was already hot in the mid 90's by 9 am. I'd like to tell you it grouped well but I can't wind took my target right off of the stand with a nice little dirt devil and I didn't feel like chasing it down. However the three cartridges I ran across the chronograph show promise of some good velocity.

Rifle is a Stevens 200, 26" McGowan Heavy Varmint .243 barrel 1:7 twist, and HS Precision stock.

All once fired Winchester brass, case prep was, decapp, clean and deburr flash hole and primer pockets, uniform primer pockets, FL resize with expander ball removed, trim to 2.030, champher case mouth, and tumble to clean cases and get lube off. My load is 105 A-Max, CCI 200 primer, RL-22, COAL 2.710", and lighly crimped using Lee Crimp Die. I was compressing the last couple of charges and didn't want the bullets to push out so that is why I used the crimp die.

1st shot 2867, 41.9 gr charge
2nd shot 3079, 42.7 gr charge
3rd shot 3128, 43.5 gr charge

I'm a little worried though that I'm already over 3100 fps and those were just to check for pressure signs. However I didn't have flattened primers, shiny headstamps, or sticky bolt lift. When I get to go out and shoot again I'll be shooting 5 shot groups round robin style, I'm using OCW to determine my load. My max charge I'm trying in this load is 45.4 gr or RL-22 which is .7% over max load according to QL. QL didn't predict my speeds to be this fast already either so I wonder if I should be worried?

 

[jmad_81]

Seems to me like you might be creeping up into 243AI terrritory. I'm running a 105 Amax with Retumbo, and getting 3030.

 

[taylorce1]

Seems to me like you might be creeping up into 243AI terrritory. I'm running a 105 Amax with Retumbo, and getting 3030.

I know, I might have wasted my money. I found a used Redding .243 AI size die for $30 and bought it. I thought if I couldn't get the speed I wanted I'd just punch the barrel out. May be selling a die soon if the rifle shoots this fast.

My cases only stretched from 2.030 to 2.034. I'll be only neck sizing them from now on untill I need to bump the shoulder back.

 

[Woodycreek]

Impressive speeds with 243 Win! I'm getting 3150 with the 243AI, 105 Amax, and a max charge of Retumbo.


Cartridge          : .243 Ackley Imp
Bullet             : .243, 105, Hornady A-MAX 24562
Useable Case Capaci: 51.032 grain H2O = 3.313 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.710 inch = 68.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 107 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

148 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP                          101.2     49.7     3.22    3290   100.0    63000   11966   1.185  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560                    103.0     49.5     3.21    3287    98.8    63000   12345   1.180  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Magnum                     105.4     53.1     3.44    3287    99.5    63000   12098   1.172  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 517                105.8     53.1     3.44    3286    99.5    63000   12087   1.172  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12                  105.6     53.0     3.44    3285    99.5    63000   12065   1.172  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO                    103.2     51.6     3.35    3276    97.8    63000   12420   1.187  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC                       101.7     49.2     3.19    3275    99.1    63000   11939   1.170  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22                 103.3     49.1     3.18    3260    99.7    63000   11838   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation       103.3     49.1     3.18    3260    99.7    63000   11838   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15                       103.3     49.1     3.18    3260    99.7    63000   11838   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ADI AR 2213                        102.7     48.8     3.16    3259    99.0    63000   11843   1.169  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR                     106.0     49.3     3.20    3259    99.7    63000   11855   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828                           107.0     48.9     3.17    3258    99.0    61931   11903   1.179  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ADI AP 2214                        106.5     52.0     3.37    3249    99.3    63000   11654   1.167  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R905                      104.5     48.8     3.16    3225    98.7    63000   11578   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-25                 107.0     50.1     3.24    3223   100.0    58419   11403   1.215  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation       106.3     51.0     3.30    3220    97.5    63000   11702   1.173  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ADI AR 2209                         99.6     46.6     3.02    3217    99.6    63000   11240   1.176  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-19                 100.1     47.1     3.05    3214    99.6    63000   11299   1.184  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP14 ~approximation         100.8     47.4     3.07    3207    99.6    63000   11217   1.184  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414                        90.4     45.0     2.91    3205   100.0    63000   10932   1.191  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 760                      90.4     45.0     2.91    3205   100.0    63000   10932   1.191  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Hunter                      95.6     46.5     3.01    3204   100.0    63000   10866   1.190  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP4 ~approximation           98.1     46.1     2.99    3190    99.5    63000   11021   1.184  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 204                           95.0     46.1     2.99    3190    99.5    63000   11021   1.184  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA4                         98.1     46.1     2.99    3190    99.5    63000   11021   1.184  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831                      105.4     48.2     3.12    3188    98.5    63000   11176   1.181  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831 SC                   101.3     48.2     3.12    3188    98.5    63000   11176   1.181  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S365                        97.1     45.4     2.94    3181   100.0    63000   10086   1.203  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N550                     92.5     44.5     2.88    3180   100.0    63000   10542   1.201  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma URP                           95.2     44.3     2.87    3180   100.0    63000   10408   1.197  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP19 ~approximation          95.2     44.3     2.87    3179   100.0    63000   10405   1.197  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4350                       98.6     44.4     2.88    3174   100.0    63000   10362   1.214  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S385                       100.3     47.7     3.09    3172    99.9    63000   10760   1.204  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation        95.7     45.7     2.96    3162   100.0    63000   10576   1.197  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester Supreme 780              98.7     49.0     3.17    3162    99.6    63000   10727   1.190  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R904                       99.0     45.9     2.97    3159    99.0    63000   10774   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4831                            99.9     45.0     2.92    3159   100.0    63000   10175   1.206  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N165                    105.5     49.1     3.18    3155    99.8    63000   10511   1.195  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N570                    107.0     53.1     3.44    3151    93.4    51854   12917   1.282  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       97.7     45.0     2.91    3147    99.9    63000   10400   1.189  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO

 

[taylorce1]

That data looks pretty good for the AI! I'm not trying to be that fast with my regular chamber, I was only hoping to reach 2900 fps. I'm just wondering if I should even shoot the rest, I'll probably really watch closely for pressure. While trying to research somethings on the web I found out about using the "Code" button for posting QL data. Trying to learn about RL22 in it and learned how to post QL all pretty. Not exactly what I was looking for but still something learned.

Cartridge          : .243 Ackley Imp
Bullet             : .243, 105, Hornady A-MAX 24562
Useable Case Capaci: 51.032 grain H2O = 3.313 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.710 inch = 68.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 107 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

148 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP                          101.2     49.7     3.22    3290   100.0    63000   11966   1.185  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560                    103.0     49.5     3.21    3287    98.8    63000   12345   1.180  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Magnum                     105.4     53.1     3.44    3287    99.5    63000   12098   1.172  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 517                105.8     53.1     3.44    3286    99.5    63000   12087   1.172  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12                  105.6     53.0     3.44    3285    99.5    63000   12065   1.172  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO                    103.2     51.6     3.35    3276    97.8    63000   12420   1.187  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC                       101.7     49.2     3.19    3275    99.1    63000   11939   1.170  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22                 103.3     49.1     3.18    3260    99.7    63000   11838   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation       103.3     49.1     3.18    3260    99.7    63000   11838   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15                       103.3     49.1     3.18    3260    99.7    63000   11838   1.186  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[SJB358]

Oh yeah! that is nice! I will have to try that...

 

[taylorce1]

Well it was nice enough this morning to shoot a few groups out of the new rifle. Really wish I had a portable bench, shooting prone off of bipods isn't my favorite way to test for accuracy. However I did get to shoot a few rounds before it got too hot so it was a good day.

My main goal was to find a load that would shoot around 2900 fps in my rifle with the 105-107 grain bullets. RL 22 so far has exceeded that goal by a lot. All cases are Winchester, Primers are CCI 200, and all 2.710" COAL.

I shot two groups with the 105 A-Max one was pretty good the other not so much. The second group confirmed my fears that I would be showing pressure signs but it sure was fast! Primers were slightly cratered and the headstamps were getting a little shiny.

Group 1, RL 22 44.4 grains
HI 3177 fps
LO 3123 fps
AVG 3147 fps
ES 54.30
SD 21.26

Group 2, RL 22 44.7 grains
HI 3269 fps
LO 3211 fps
AVG 3235 fps
ES 58.12
SD 22.69

Next I tried Sierra 107 grain Match Kings.

Group 1, H1000 45.4 grains
HI 2906 fps
LO 2870 fps
AVG 2888 fps
ES 35.84
SD 13.19

I think this one would have grouped really well but as you can see the nut behind the trigger didn't get the job done.

Group 2, H1000 45.7 grains
HI 2904 fps
LO 2864 fps
AVG 2880 fps
ES 40.56
SD 15.00

 

[DrMike]

That looks promising.

 

[FOTIS]

absolutely!

 

[taylorce1]

That looks promising.

What would you do to get the loads to shoot a little better? I mean you are the guru of load development.

I deprimed all the cases with a Lee decapping die. I then de-burred the flash holes, cleaned, then uniformed the primer pockets. FL re-sized with the decapping pin and expander ball removed. Trimmed to length, chamfered the case mouths, and tumbled to remove all lube.

Each charge was thrown with an RCBS Charge Master, seated the bullets with a regular RCBS seating die, and lightly crimped with a LEE crimp die. I didn't see much if any run out when I rolled a sampling of the loaded ammunition across a mirror. However I'm still thinking a Hornady concentricity tool is in my future.

I figure I'll start playing with seating depth, but I still need this to feed from the magazine. So I don't know if I'll get very close to the lands since this is throated for the 115's. My last magazine couldn't feed any COAL over 2.810 with 100% reliability. I haven't tested this new magazine to see how long I can seat the bullets out and still feed from the mag.

Of course I'll tweak the powder charges a little as well, but I only like to do one thing at a time. I'm just trying to figure out if I want to mess with the charges first or the seating depth fist. One ragged hole isn't necessary but sub 1/2" groups would be nice.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

...Each charge was thrown with an RCBS Charge Master...

Break out the beam scale...I know, I know...but I just don't care for loading accuracy ammo in a digital scale.

Stop crimping...I'm guessing the compressed charge of RL22 might push the bullets back out without the crimp but I don't know...I do know crimp is just another variable thats better left out when possible. I've had good luck with Reloder 19 in the 243...but I've never used bullets over 100 grains.

And do your OCW for charge weights, then the same test again for seating depth (OSD test...optimum seating depth)

At least thats how I do it. Good luck!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

What kind of cronograph are you shooting over? That's one of first things that come to my mind.

The cheaper cronys like to hop up the speeds a bit sometimes.

I wanna say I was getting 2900-2925 with H1000 and 105 amax w/22" bbl.

 

[DrMike]

Your SDs are sufficiently low that I'd be inclined to play with seating depth. Whenever I have a load that generates a consistent velocity, it tells me that accuracy is likely a matter of finding the proper harmonics. Ergo, I would focus on playing with seating depth. Alternatively, if magazine depth inhibits seating out closer to the lands, the next step for me would be to finesse the charge weight to see if it tightens the groups.

 

[taylorce1]

Break out the beam scale...I know, I know...but I just don't care for loading accuracy ammo in a digital scale.

Stop crimping...I'm guessing the compressed charge of RL22 might push the bullets back out without the crimp but I don't know...

The beam scales are there and I check my digital scale from time to time. However, I calibrate my scale everytime I switch powders. So far now that I've removed the flouresent lights from my reloading area my digital scale matches up perfectly with my beam scale. I like the Chargemaster as it speeds up my reloading process, I throw charges a lot as well with ball powders and still have accurate loads.

I crimped because of the compressed loads I was shooting with both RL22 and H1000. In fact I was using a drop tube to get the powder in cases better. I've had bullet seating depth change before with compressed loads. I don't know how much affect it had on accuracy but a slight crimp removed that from the equation.

What kind of cronograph are you shooting over?

It is a Chrony Beta Master, I've had error problems with it when I shoot in too bright of sunlight reading correctly. I've fixed that by shading the eyes with a piece of thin white cotton cloth taped to the sunscreens to fix the errors. So far a couple of my varmint rifles that I work the dope on past 500 yards seem to be pretty darn close to what the velocity figures I get off of the Chrony when plugged in to a ballistics program.

Your SDs are sufficiently low that I'd be inclined to play with seating depth. Whenever I have a load that generates a consistent velocity, it tells me that accuracy is likely a matter of finding the proper harmonics. Ergo, I would focus on playing with seating depth. Alternatively, if magazine depth inhibits seating out closer to the lands, the next step for me would be to finesse the charge weight to see if it tightens the groups.
Your SDs are sufficiently low that I'd be inclined to play with seating depth. Whenever I have a load that generates a consistent velocity, it tells me that accuracy is likely a matter of finding the proper harmonics. Ergo, I would focus on playing with seating depth. Alternatively, if magazine depth inhibits seating out closer to the lands, the next step for me would be to finesse the charge weight to see if it tightens the groups.

That was what I was figuring as well, glad you confirmed that for me. I'm going to play with the depth and figure out what will feed reliably from my magazine. I'll work from there I guess first and see what my rifle likes.

I might load up some bullets with a lighter charge of RL-22 since I had some more rounds loaded up that I didn't shoot becaues or pressure signs. Like I said I'd be happy with anything that groups around 2900 fps. I might be able to break into the teens on SD with a lighter charge.

 

[DrMike]

There is nothing wrong with the Shooting Chrony Beta Master. If it is set up properly, it delivers good information, as do essentially all chronographs manufactured today. Your technique appears to be quite good, or you would not observe the low SDs you witness. Technique is not a problem for you. You are simply approximating the sweet spot, and a bit of tweaking should reveal it for you.

 

[onesonek]

Your SDs are sufficiently low that I'd be inclined to play with seating depth. Whenever I have a load that generates a consistent velocity, it tells me that accuracy is likely a matter of finding the proper harmonics. Ergo, I would focus on playing with seating depth. Alternatively, if magazine depth inhibits seating out closer to the lands, the next step for me would be to finesse the charge weight to see if it tightens the groups.

I agree,,,,
Pretty impressive and promising so far~!

 

[Guest]

I think you've got at least two or three good opportunities there. It really depends on what you're after, and which components you prefer to work with moving forward. I've had people tell me RL22 is fairly temperature sensitive. I don't know if it is or isn't, as I don't use it much. I've also had people tell me H1000 has little variation, and I've had others tell me the whole "temp stable extreme powder" thing from Hodgdon is bunk. I know I've had good results in varying temps (25-35deg during hunting season to 85-95deg during early summer shooting) from powders from a variety of manufacturers, but all show some variation. It's usually not enough to notice out to 400-500yds, which is my self-imposed limit. But in your case, it bears some investigation.

So what would I do? Well, if you have the components, I'd pursue two loads. I'd chase the better grouping of the two RL22 loads (if there are no pressure signs) and the better grouping of the two H1000 loads. You might re-shoot the H1000 loads just to verify which is better (since you think you pulled one). Either of those is likely tunable down to half a minute or better. And it isn't necessarily closer to the lands that will bring it, though with a compressed load, shorter COLs may begin to pose problems. Regardless, I'd chase the seating depth on the two best loads you've shot so far (one with each powder), and find the most consistent groups you can. Then I'd load up 12-15 of each and hold onto them until the temps drop by at least 30-40deg, and re-shoot. If they're still tight groups, and relatively close in velocity, I think you're set. If not, you've got more work to do. I suspect one or both will be good across the temp range and you'll be in fine shape.

 

[taylorce1]

I've got a few more loads to shoot yet. I built my spread sheet to compute charges based on the maximum charge for a given bullet weight. It subtracts 7% from the max charge to find my starting point and then increases the next three charges by 2%. The first three rounds are for sighting in and checking pressure. The first five shot group is the end of my 2% jump, and the following three five shot groups are increased by 0.7%. The last charge is always 0.7% over max by book or QL so if I show pressure signs I never shoot that one.

I gave up on the RL-22 before I shot the last two groups because I arrived at some pressure indicators early on, but since I was way over my desired 2900 fps I saw no reason to push it. QL showed 45 grains or RL-22 as max so I had loaded up 23 rounds to test: 1-41.9 grains, 1-42.7 grains, 1-43.5 grains, 5-44.4 grains, 5-44.7 grains, 5-45.0 grains, and 5-45.4 grains.

I have two more groups to shoot as well with the 107 and H1000. Hogdon indicated am max load of 46 grains H1000, and I loaded up 23 rounds as well: 1-42.8 grains, 1-43.6 grains, 1-44.5 grains, 5-45.4 grains, 5-45.7 grains, 5-46.0 grains, and 5-46.4 grains. I shot everything up to 45.7 grains yesterday.

I have H4831 loaded with 105 Berger Hunting VLD's as well to test. 41.5 grains was max load by Hogdon as well. So I have them loaded as such: 1-38.6 grains, 1-39.4 grains, 1-40.2 grains, 5-41.0 grains, 5-41.2 grains, 5-41.5 grains, and 5-41.8 grains.