I used my 270WSM with 140gr Accubonds for elk. It did the job, but I didn't think it had the power the .308's Mag and above carry. I agree with Jake, elk are very tough and after chasing one over a mtn, I opt for more rifle. Granted, if you can't shoot the bigger ones, stick with what you know, but most any guy can get behind a 300 Mag and learn to shoot it well and set it up properly to not rattle your bridgework. Scotty
25-06?
- Thread starter Co243Win
- Start date
This is exactly the kind of attitude that can get you in big trouble on elk... regardless of caliber choice. If you're taking "imperfect shots"... then you're bound to get "imperfect results". Starting a bullet in the paunch of a hard-quartering bull... just because you feel like you have "enough gun" to get it through to the vitals... is inviting trouble... 115 Partition out of a .25-06... or 220 Partition out of a .300 Winny. Expecting a caliber/bullet to compensate for poor shot placement (or poor shot choice), whether intentional or unintentional, is rolling the dice... and borderline reckless.
It's a much greater trophy to let a critter walk becuase you don't have a shot... than to look at bone on the wall and remember the 3-mile tracking job on a wounded bull because you thought you "brought enough gun"... and actually you just "brought enough luck".[/quote]
Songdog I take a bit of offense here. It's not like I haven't killed a couple of larger animals along the way. Elk are still just animals. Granted I have only shot one quite a while ago. You are correct that caliber does not make up for poor shot placement. I hit a bedded cow moose one the shoulder with a 180 gr. Bear Claw at 3300 ft/sec right around 75 yards just to have her bugger off. I hit her again at 50 yards 30 minutes later on the other shoulder. It put her down but I had to shot her again to kill her. It sure surprised me they could soak up that much energy. With that said I tipped an other cow moose over at over 375 yards quartering away. In just behind the second to last rib and found the bullet under the hide on the off shoulder. What's that two and a half feet of moose. A 225 gr. Bear Claw out of a 358 STA. That would go a long way to show evidence to lower velocities penetrate better. I only agree with that some what.
Songdog I'm trying not to offend here cause I think we are probably arguing the same point.
IMO though and this is only from observations of terminal ballistics on N. American game. Correction on that, never seen a ... I was going to say big bears but does a 600 pound black bear count as a big bear?? Anyway I was thinking grizzly or brown bear where the a shot on the shoulder to break him down is recommended. Quartering away, very obtuse angle, and if I remember correctly almost 4 feet of penetration. Not my bear, I wish it was. 338 with a Barnes.
I guess what I'm saying is if the caliber, bullet weight and construction is correct it makes marginal and even bad shoots into acceptable shoots.
Jim
And with that said IMO nothing short of a 7mm shooting heavy bullets, 160 gr. plus on elk or larger.
It's a much greater trophy to let a critter walk becuase you don't have a shot... than to look at bone on the wall and remember the 3-mile tracking job on a wounded bull because you thought you "brought enough gun"... and actually you just "brought enough luck".[/quote]
Songdog I take a bit of offense here. It's not like I haven't killed a couple of larger animals along the way. Elk are still just animals. Granted I have only shot one quite a while ago. You are correct that caliber does not make up for poor shot placement. I hit a bedded cow moose one the shoulder with a 180 gr. Bear Claw at 3300 ft/sec right around 75 yards just to have her bugger off. I hit her again at 50 yards 30 minutes later on the other shoulder. It put her down but I had to shot her again to kill her. It sure surprised me they could soak up that much energy. With that said I tipped an other cow moose over at over 375 yards quartering away. In just behind the second to last rib and found the bullet under the hide on the off shoulder. What's that two and a half feet of moose. A 225 gr. Bear Claw out of a 358 STA. That would go a long way to show evidence to lower velocities penetrate better. I only agree with that some what.
Songdog I'm trying not to offend here cause I think we are probably arguing the same point.
IMO though and this is only from observations of terminal ballistics on N. American game. Correction on that, never seen a ... I was going to say big bears but does a 600 pound black bear count as a big bear?? Anyway I was thinking grizzly or brown bear where the a shot on the shoulder to break him down is recommended. Quartering away, very obtuse angle, and if I remember correctly almost 4 feet of penetration. Not my bear, I wish it was. 338 with a Barnes.
I guess what I'm saying is if the caliber, bullet weight and construction is correct it makes marginal and even bad shoots into acceptable shoots.
Jim
And with that said IMO nothing short of a 7mm shooting heavy bullets, 160 gr. plus on elk or larger.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,169
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Jim,
Elk, an moose as far as that goes, can indeed soak up a lot of punishment. I have to admire moose. It is not infrequent that when shot, they stand there as though nothing happened! They seem so phlegmatic even though they are dead on their feet. Then, having absorbed such a pounding, they turn and look for the nearest beaver pond to fall into. Elk, on the other hand, seem to not only absorb punishment, but manage to whirl and run at top speed for the next county when shot. Last fall I saw an elk absorb three hits from a 376 Styer and two from a 325 WSM. The lovesick critter just refused to give up. I do like to see people using enough bullet to ensure that a solid hit is delivered. While it is true that a bad shot is a bad shot, you are correct that extra mass and velocity don't hurt a thing in ensuring that they don't run too far. Big bullets at high velocities do indeed ensure that marginal shots are quickly lethal.
Elk, an moose as far as that goes, can indeed soak up a lot of punishment. I have to admire moose. It is not infrequent that when shot, they stand there as though nothing happened! They seem so phlegmatic even though they are dead on their feet. Then, having absorbed such a pounding, they turn and look for the nearest beaver pond to fall into. Elk, on the other hand, seem to not only absorb punishment, but manage to whirl and run at top speed for the next county when shot. Last fall I saw an elk absorb three hits from a 376 Styer and two from a 325 WSM. The lovesick critter just refused to give up. I do like to see people using enough bullet to ensure that a solid hit is delivered. While it is true that a bad shot is a bad shot, you are correct that extra mass and velocity don't hurt a thing in ensuring that they don't run too far. Big bullets at high velocities do indeed ensure that marginal shots are quickly lethal.
Jim1 AB":18j40a9z said:
I think we are... sort of.
What I'm saying is... IN MY OPINION, folks use that "wait for the perfect shot" phrase as a negative conotation toward calibers they deem "marginal"... and then somehow think that you can go shooting 900 pound bulls up the poop shute with a .338 RUM and expect them to drop at the shot. I think you should ALWAYS wait for the "perfect shot"... as dictated by the caliber you're shooting and the game at hand. Would you shoot a Cape Buffalo or a big Brown Bear as it was quartering hard away and/or moving through the thick brush... regardless of the caliber you're toting? I think not... for obvious reasons... you could get:
A: stomped in to a fine paste roughly equivilent to 97 gallons of raspberry jam... or
B: end up with large claw/teeth marks on your hide... or worse, they could find you in a pile of scat next to Timmy Treadwell.
This example is a bit extreme... but illustrates my point. I feel elk are the same way... when hit poorly... you never know if/when you'll catch up. I understand they're not hell bent on re-aranging your anatomy... but they're still due a certain amount of respect... and to me, that means a bullet through both lungs. At the end of the day... rifle rounds are far more alike than they are different... would I prefer something in the .30-.338 class for big bulls? Yes. Would I feel undergunned with my trusty .25-06 (stoked with a good pill, of course)? No way... I'd be roasting back-straps... because I wouldn't take a shot at a bull that I don't think would end up causing him a serious hydraulic leak.
Didn't mean to single you out... that was never my intention... I think we all understand the ethical side of this argument... and "caliber" doesn't really equate to "ethics"... a bullet through clock-work does.
That is why this is the best reloading/shooting/hunting site on the net. Most of the men here get it, and are saying the same thing. It doesn't end with a peeing contest. Even though we all come from different walks of life we all pretty much agree on the same stuff. Scotty
Songdog:
We are probably closer to the same opinion than I first thought. But everyone one is entitled their opinion. Oh now that sounds rude and not what I'm trying to convey here. It is to bad that most of these sites are not, and maybe beretzs is correct, pissing contests and not learning events as they should be. I sure as hell don't think I know it all and am stupid enough to think I can't learn from others experiences. I would really like to see where if a person has limit knowledge but yet some thing to add just say it instead of trying to come off as the affirmative answer to the question posed. There seams to be a lot of real green guys really on these sites for information. Maybe in my opinion more they they should. It seams everyone has forgotten how to pick up a book and read it. With that statement I maybe dating myself, lol. It still holds true though.
Jim
We are probably closer to the same opinion than I first thought. But everyone one is entitled their opinion. Oh now that sounds rude and not what I'm trying to convey here. It is to bad that most of these sites are not, and maybe beretzs is correct, pissing contests and not learning events as they should be. I sure as hell don't think I know it all and am stupid enough to think I can't learn from others experiences. I would really like to see where if a person has limit knowledge but yet some thing to add just say it instead of trying to come off as the affirmative answer to the question posed. There seams to be a lot of real green guys really on these sites for information. Maybe in my opinion more they they should. It seams everyone has forgotten how to pick up a book and read it. With that statement I maybe dating myself, lol. It still holds true though.
Jim
Sorry DrMike I should address your comment.
From what I have been able to learn from hunters with a hell of a lot more knowledge than me, the deal ,with moose and I'd think almost as much with elk shot broad side is it just take a long time to fill them big lungs with blood. And the higher they are shot the longer it will take. Regardless of caliber.
DrMike with that said adrenaline is an amazing thing. Dam if a person can hit an animal that is just sort of standing there with out knowing what just smacked them in the ribs the less likely they will do anything more than stand there an contemplate it. Let's hope.
Jim
From what I have been able to learn from hunters with a hell of a lot more knowledge than me, the deal ,with moose and I'd think almost as much with elk shot broad side is it just take a long time to fill them big lungs with blood. And the higher they are shot the longer it will take. Regardless of caliber.
DrMike with that said adrenaline is an amazing thing. Dam if a person can hit an animal that is just sort of standing there with out knowing what just smacked them in the ribs the less likely they will do anything more than stand there an contemplate it. Let's hope.
Jim
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,169
- 5,631
Jim,
I think we are on the same page. I've seen elk fall at the shot and I've seen elk move surprisingly fast when dead on their feet. I've seen moose drop at the shot and I've seen moose turn and walk away as though nothing happened. I've seen whitetails and mulies drop as hit with the hammer of Thor, and I've seen others that ran a surprising distance though technically dead. From your comments, you've witnessed similar responses from game. These wild animals have amazing constitutions; they can certainly humble us at times. Because we don't know precisely how an animal will react to the shot, I believe each of us want to do all that is possible to ensure that the shot is clean and that the animal dies quickly. Having said that, we know that we can't control their reaction, and so we prepare ourselves for a quick follow-up if necessary and use what we shoot best. We are hunters and not trick shooters.
I think we are on the same page. I've seen elk fall at the shot and I've seen elk move surprisingly fast when dead on their feet. I've seen moose drop at the shot and I've seen moose turn and walk away as though nothing happened. I've seen whitetails and mulies drop as hit with the hammer of Thor, and I've seen others that ran a surprising distance though technically dead. From your comments, you've witnessed similar responses from game. These wild animals have amazing constitutions; they can certainly humble us at times. Because we don't know precisely how an animal will react to the shot, I believe each of us want to do all that is possible to ensure that the shot is clean and that the animal dies quickly. Having said that, we know that we can't control their reaction, and so we prepare ourselves for a quick follow-up if necessary and use what we shoot best. We are hunters and not trick shooters.
It's funny that we all really do seem to be on the same page here... we just express it differently. At the end of the day, I place much more emphasis on the shooter and bullet construction than I do on "caliber".
Dr. Mike...
Soooooo true on "controlling an animal's reaction" to the shot. Unless you hit CNS, all bets are off. I've seen some pretty amazing things from critters, they can be tough as nails... and then other times they can hit the ground like a sack of rocks. The only thing we as hunters can control (mostly) is where that bullet strikes... after that, we just hope all goes well.
It's awesome to discuss this stuff without anyone getting a burr under the saddle... Great forum... Great bullets... Great people. Can't ask for anything more than that.
Dr. Mike...
Soooooo true on "controlling an animal's reaction" to the shot. Unless you hit CNS, all bets are off. I've seen some pretty amazing things from critters, they can be tough as nails... and then other times they can hit the ground like a sack of rocks. The only thing we as hunters can control (mostly) is where that bullet strikes... after that, we just hope all goes well.
It's awesome to discuss this stuff without anyone getting a burr under the saddle... Great forum... Great bullets... Great people. Can't ask for anything more than that.
257 Ackley
Handloader
- Nov 25, 2008
- 1,763
- 0
I started tagging along with my Dad hunting whitetail deer at the age of 7 and watched him shoot at least one deer every year until he couldn't see well enough to feel comfortable in the woods anymore. His weapon for all those years was a model 94 30-30, bought new when he came home from WW2. The only place he ever shot deer was in the neck. That meant that he had to "hunt" and know the patterns of the deer where we lived. It also meant passing up shots that he wasn't assured would be a clean killing shot. His philosophy was; they don't run anywhere when the nervous system is shut down and the spine is broken. I know from hunting both elk and moose that they can absorb alot more energy and lead than a 150 lb deer, but the same principle applies. On my last moose hunt it was a 338-06, 210 Partition bullet in the neck that dropped a 1200 lb bull where he stood. I hate having to go into the steep thick stuff after game that I shoot.
I tell my son that it is more important for him to shoot his rifles well (spend time behind the trigger) than it is to have the biggest drill bit in the forest. Being knowledgable of the limits of your caliber of choice, how far the energy of the bullet will kill effectivly and knowing shot placement on your target will reduce lost game and miles of chase. With that being said, I just bought him a 300WSM for elk and moose hunting :lol: .
I tell my son that it is more important for him to shoot his rifles well (spend time behind the trigger) than it is to have the biggest drill bit in the forest. Being knowledgable of the limits of your caliber of choice, how far the energy of the bullet will kill effectivly and knowing shot placement on your target will reduce lost game and miles of chase. With that being said, I just bought him a 300WSM for elk and moose hunting :lol: .
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
- 2,618
- 0
Jim, the problem with hunting elk in rifle season, after the rut is over, and they have been stired up for two months by the Bow and Muzzle loadering hunters, is they don't just stand there 100 yards broadside and wait for you to shoot them. Most of your shots will be on with the elk either running, through the trees, quartering, or some combination of the above. At least 75% of the elk we've taken have been on running shots. When the elk are making tracks away from you, there is no "waiting" for a perfect shot. When the elk are crossing, either you have put in the practice, and have the dispiline, confidence and equipment to convert that fleeing elk into steaks, or you risk going home empty handed.
Dr Mike. When I see a post like this, I can tell, yep, that's someone that's been elk hunting. Three shots fm a .376, and two shots fm a .325, yea those are the elk I know. This is especially true in an area with high hunting pressure. You seldom see them during the day, so if you do someone has probably rousted them, so they will have a charge of adrenelin, and they won't be slowing down....unless you can put some really big holes in them.
DrMike":3bl4gk65 said:
Dr Mike. When I see a post like this, I can tell, yep, that's someone that's been elk hunting. Three shots fm a .376, and two shots fm a .325, yea those are the elk I know. This is especially true in an area with high hunting pressure. You seldom see them during the day, so if you do someone has probably rousted them, so they will have a charge of adrenelin, and they won't be slowing down....unless you can put some really big holes in them.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,169
- 5,631
Sniper,
As I said, I am humbled at how all game can absorb punishment if they are the least bit alert. However, in my experience, elk seem to be the toughest game to down. A moose will absorb a lot of punishment and still have enough jam to make things tough for the conscientious hunter. A bear can definitely put the hurt on you if it is the least bit aware at the shot. An elk, however, aware of your presence of not, is capable of some amazing runs. I remember tracking one elk with a friend for over 600 yards before having to call off the search because of dark--and that was with a solid hit, finding lots of blood and lung tissue sprayed about. It meant another day ahead of us. These critters can be some tough. That is why I like to see enough bullet to smack them hard.
As I said, I am humbled at how all game can absorb punishment if they are the least bit alert. However, in my experience, elk seem to be the toughest game to down. A moose will absorb a lot of punishment and still have enough jam to make things tough for the conscientious hunter. A bear can definitely put the hurt on you if it is the least bit aware at the shot. An elk, however, aware of your presence of not, is capable of some amazing runs. I remember tracking one elk with a friend for over 600 yards before having to call off the search because of dark--and that was with a solid hit, finding lots of blood and lung tissue sprayed about. It meant another day ahead of us. These critters can be some tough. That is why I like to see enough bullet to smack them hard.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 24,895
- 7,781
DrMike
Exactly why my elk rifle is a 338 RUM and of course precise bullet placement.
JD338
Exactly why my elk rifle is a 338 RUM and of course precise bullet placement.
JD338
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,169
- 5,631
Jim,
That 338 RUM will put a smack-down on an elk! :shock:
Scotty,
The 338 WM and the 35 Whelen work very well, indeed. I can't wait to see what my 9.3 X 64 does on an elk! Next year, I fear.
That 338 RUM will put a smack-down on an elk! :shock:
Scotty,
The 338 WM and the 35 Whelen work very well, indeed. I can't wait to see what my 9.3 X 64 does on an elk! Next year, I fear.
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,184
- 2,822
Nice classic the 9.3.
I think your Brenekke is going to be a monster! It is all of the Whelen and just about the same as a 375 H&H with a better BC'ed bullet. Too bad the 9.3's aren't more common, they make alot of sense for bigger, big game, kinda like the 358 Norma and the others that really put the big bullets downrange with good speed and alot of bullet mass! Scotty
Powerstroke
Handloader
- Feb 24, 2006
- 1,792
- 33
My opinion is a simply one. Hit them, elk or moose with the biggest thing your comfortable shooting. For some reason I've have never shot 250s in my 358 STA. At first it was 240s then 225s. Either TB or NP. With another moose tag being drawn and an itch to try something new I went to a 300 grain Wildcat. "Worked" on moose and left me embarrassed on black bear. It now is loaded up with 280 A Frames, which it really likes. 1/2" for two shoots with three different powders. @2840 ft/sec.
On the sixth day God made the 35 caliber and on the seventh rested.
On the sixth day God made the 35 caliber and on the seventh rested.
