30-06 AI

[old #7]

I just dropped off my Rem 700 30-06 aniversary model at the gunsmith to be AI'd.
He said it would be about 3 weeks before I got it back. :grin:
The best part is it wil be Robert Dunlap doing the work. :grin: and his shop is only 20 miles away :grin:
I was in Brookings, Oregon, building a Oregon State Park Welcome Center, when I got bored and decided to find all the gun shops in the area. I stopped by a gun shop and found a great deal on Federal primers (22.45 a 1000 :grin: ) and asked about gunsmithing. I was suprised to hear that a nationaly known gunsmith has a shop twenty miles from my house. :grin:
I had a very nice friday the 13th.

My gunsmith( ) said to take a 30-06 cartrige and dent the case a bit to create tension durring chambering. This wil keep the case tight against the bolt face and reduce expansion in the web area. I think that is a great idea. I can use factory ammo and ammo that I have reloaded previously for fire forming without worring about the excessive pressure if I was to seat the bullet into the lands to prevent streching in the web area.

 

[nomosendero]

Congrats on the AI. I have a Win. M70 30-06AI , a Sendero 25-06AI & a
30-30AI Con. Super 14 & I enjoy all 3.

The AI conversion should be done where you have a "crush fit" when you chamber factory 30-06 rounds if done properly & that takes care of the matter. If yours won't, you need to find out why.

 

[FOTIS]

Nice!!!! try 180's and about 62 grains or so or RL22. Should get 2875-2925 fps.

 

[wingnut]

Old 7-

So, just how much are you going to "dent" those cases?

I'd use the "into the lands" method myself if reloading, alot of the energy will be going into the fire forming the brass. You will not have over pressure. Fire forming factory is not going to be a problem either. Then, there is the COW method.

Pop-
I agree with your load. IMO, AB's shoot better than NP's, mag primers, of course.

 

[FOTIS]

I used the cheapest bullet I can find at the time (Speer 100 grain Plinkers) and Unique. Shoot all the birds, jackrabbets and or rats you can with them or plink forever while fireforming. :lol:



Cartridge : .30-06 Spring.
Bullet : .308, 100, Speer RN PLI 1805
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.700 inch or 68.58 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : Alliant UNIQUE

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 40 14.40 2120 998 23442 3035 100.0 1.368
-18.0 41 14.76 2148 1025 24374 3100 100.0 1.342
-16.0 42 15.12 2176 1051 25319 3166 100.0 1.317
-14.0 43 15.48 2204 1078 26279 3231 100.0 1.294
-12.0 44 15.84 2231 1105 27252 3295 100.0 1.271
-10.0 45 16.20 2258 1132 28239 3360 100.0 1.250
-08.0 46 16.56 2285 1159 29239 3424 100.0 1.229
-06.0 47 16.92 2311 1186 30253 3488 100.0 1.210
-04.0 48 17.28 2337 1213 31281 3552 100.0 1.191
-02.0 49 17.64 2362 1239 32323 3615 100.0 1.173
+00.0 50 18.00 2388 1266 33378 3678 100.0 1.156
+02.0 51 18.36 2413 1293 34448 3741 100.0 1.139
+04.0 52 18.72 2438 1319 35531 3803 100.0 1.123
+06.0 53 19.08 2462 1346 36627 3866 100.0 1.108
+08.0 54 19.44 2486 1373 37738 3928 100.0 1.093
+10.0 55 19.80 2510 1399 38863 3989 100.0 1.079

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 50 18.00 2401 1280 35664 3656 100.0 1.126
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 50 18.00 2370 1247 30719 3709 100.0 1.195

 

[JD338]

The AI conversion should be done where you have a "crush fit" when you chamber factory 30-06 rounds if done properly & that takes care of the matter. If yours won't, you need to find out why.

old #7,

Congratulations on your 30-06AI.

nomosendero is spot on. You might want to dooble check with your gunsmith about "denting" the case.
My 280 AI cases were fire formed with a MAX load 280 Remington. I would think the 30-06AI would be similar.

JD338

 

[bullet]

JD338 is correct. I owned a Sako TRG 30-06 AI custom. You really need to use close to book max 30-06 loads to fire form. The 30-06 AI was a lot of work but it shot great with the Lilja barrel I had on it. Not enough return for the work as far as I was concerned. The 280AI is a better improved round than the 30-06AI as far as getting more velocity for the effort. Now that said, my 30-06 AI sure put down a good black bear in his tracks.

 

[steve4102]

I had an old Rem 700 30-06 laying around gathering dust. I was never impressed with the accuracy of this rifle and it was ugly. I desided to spruce it up with a new laminated stock and an AI conversion.

Man did I catch a lot of grief from my fellow shooters and handloaders. I was told it was a waist of money and that the 30-06 isn't a good candidate for an AI, especially if I was dumb enough to keep the 22 inch factory barrel. I was told I would be lucky to get 50fps increase in velocity over the standard chamber. I did not take their advice and did the conversion on my factory barrel anyway. I must say I am more than pleased how it turned out. It looks great and more important it shoots great, and As long as I don't load it hot and stretch the primer pockets the brass lasts a loooong time. Plus the round looks kool.

I tried R22 with 180gr Partitions and was less than impressed. 62gr of R-22 in my 22" barrel ran about 2750fps. I must have a slow lot of R-22. I tried a lot of powders and found my rifle likes 7828 and MRP with 180 Partitions.

Here is what QL says about R-22 in 30-06AI/22" barrel. I found it to be spot on with my testing.

Cartridge : .30-06 Ack Imp
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.332 inch or 84.63 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 86 49.60 2129 1812 26414 8618 81.4 1.559
-18.0 88 50.84 2188 1913 28213 8962 83.0 1.518
-16.0 90 52.08 2247 2017 30143 9302 84.6 1.476
-14.0 92 53.32 2306 2126 32216 9636 86.2 1.436
-12.0 94 54.56 2366 2238 34444 9964 87.7 1.397
-10.0 96 55.80 2427 2354 36840 10283 89.1 1.359
-08.0 98 57.04 2488 2474 39421 10592 90.4 1.316
-06.0 101 58.28 2550 2598 42205 10890 91.7 1.274
-04.0 103 59.52 2612 2726 45208 11175 92.9 1.233
-02.0 105 60.76 2674 2858 48454 11446 94.1 1.194
+00.0 107 62.00 2737 2994 51968 11701 95.1 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 109 63.24 2800 3133 55777 11939 96.0 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 111 64.48 2863 3277 59913 12157 96.9 1.082 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 113 65.72 2927 3424 64411 12355 97.6 1.048 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 116 66.96 2990 3574 69317 12530 98.3 1.014 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 118 68.20 3054 3729 74674 12682 98.9 0.982 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 107 62.00 2904 3371 63936 11813 99.5 1.059 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 107 62.00 2523 2545 41818 10902 86.2 1.277

 

[nomosendero]

Steve, could you tell us about your 7828 results?

 

[old #7]

Maybe I should have said DIMPLE the case. It is just to cause slight resistance while chambering the round. To insure that there is no stretching in the web.
I wasn't thinking of hitting the case with a sledge hammer :roll:

I am very confident in my gunsmith's abilities.
http://www.piscogunsmithing.com/qual.html

The point of dimpling the case to insure a crush fit is to not seat the bullet into the lands and cause an increase in pressure.
As a few of you said :

You really need to use close to book max 30-06 loads to fire form.

It was brought up as a precautionary measure.

Anyway I can't wait to get it back. I am hoping to reach 3000fps with a 165 AB.
In the standard case I have been averaging 2870 with 62grs of rl-19 with great grouping. I haven't tried RL-22 in it yet because the results of the RL-19 load were so nice.

 

[nomosendero]

Good luck, I think you will like it

 

[JD338]

old #7

I would think you should have now worries getting the 165 gr to 3000 fps.
RL22 should be a great powder for you. I have had excellent velocity and accuracy with RL 22 in my 280 AI.
I will try to get a hold of a friend of mine, my gunsmith built him a 30-06 AI.
He shoots a 165 gr but I am not sure what powder he is using.

JD338

 

[old #7]

I want to try some of the Viht powders but, I can't find any locally.
I also have good results in my 280AI with rl-22 but I was hoping to to find something a little slower and not as temp sensitive.
Any suggestions? I know these are slower but how about the temp sensitivity.
RL-25?
H-1000?
7828?

 

[wingnut]

I want to try some of the Viht powders but, I can't find any locally.
I also have good results in my 280AI with rl-22 but I was hoping to to find something a little slower and not as temp sensitive.
Any suggestions? I know these are slower but how about the temp sensitivity.
RL-25?
H-1000?
7828?

Take a look at Nosler #5 and #6, the '06 AI really does not do much until you get to 180g or above. I too wanted a temp in-sensitive powder and tested H1000 and H4831 with 180g AB's and NP's, neither powder gave me the speed of RL22 and RL22 filled to the bottom of the bullet. My accuracy load is 2950 fps, 180g bullet. That far out shines a 165 at 3000 fps. I know of one elk that did not care for it, I'm hoping to find others. Of course, YMMV.

 

[steve4102]

Steve, could you tell us about your 7828 results?

I found 7828 to run pretty close to what QL says in my rifle. Accuracy is very consistant and repeatable 1-1 1/8 inch groups at 100 yards with 180 Partitions. I can get Sierra 180 GK to shoot sub MOA, but I do not hunt with anything but Partitions so that means very little .

Here are the QL numbers for 7828.
Cartridge : .30-06 Ack Imp
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.332 inch or 84.63 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 7828

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 89 49.61 2112 1783 26691 8355 77.8 1.547
-18.0 91 50.85 2171 1884 28524 8710 79.6 1.505
-16.0 93 52.09 2230 1988 30496 9064 81.3 1.464
-14.0 96 53.33 2291 2098 32615 9413 83.0 1.423
-12.0 98 54.57 2352 2211 34897 9756 84.6 1.383
-10.0 100 55.81 2414 2330 37357 10093 86.2 1.344
-08.0 102 57.05 2477 2452 40011 10420 87.7 1.300
-06.0 105 58.29 2541 2580 42879 10736 89.2 1.258
-04.0 107 59.53 2605 2712 45980 11041 90.6 1.217
-02.0 109 60.77 2669 2848 49344 11330 91.9 1.177
+00.0 111 62.01 2735 2989 52995 11604 93.1 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 114 63.25 2801 3135 56967 11860 94.3 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 116 64.49 2867 3285 61297 12096 95.3 1.064 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 118 65.73 2934 3440 66026 12311 96.3 1.029 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 120 66.97 3001 3599 71205 12502 97.1 0.995 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 122 68.21 3068 3763 76898 12667 97.9 0.961 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 111 62.01 2913 3392 64207 11868 98.7 1.044 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 111 62.01 2513 2523 43201 10639 83.1 1.256

 

[nomosendero]

Thanks Steve, I will try 7828 in mine with the 180 Acc.

I would sure advise you to try the Accu., I saw what it did to an Elk last fall & they shoot.

 

[old #7]

I got my rifle back today :shock:
I was sure it would take longer but he said everything went very smoothly the last week and decided to test fire my rifle early.

I went out this morning and fire formed 40 factory rounds.
I did talk with my smith about fire forming again and did slightly dimple the case as he suggested. These were not hand loads so the option of seating into the rifiling was not available. I had no problems.
He suggested to use light to medium loads for fire forming not near max.
He said the case will tend to "slap" the chamber wall durring the process and could cause a small "bulge" in the chamber if the metal was weak.


I can't wait to load up some rounds and shoot over the chrony.
The bad part of getting my rifle back today is .... I am leaving tomorrow for a week long camp and fishing trip. :evil:
I have been waiting a long time to get out of Dodge and now I can't wait to get back. :evil:
It could be a long week. I hope the fish are biting.

 

[old #7]

Should I be concerned that my NCR in 280AI doesn't give me a slight crush fit when chambering a standard 280 round.

 

[GSSP]

With my 26" Lilja '06 AI barrel, my best loads run thusly.

180 BT/AB seated .015" off lands, Win case, Fed 210M primer, 68.5 gr Rel 25 for 2997 fps. Shoots 4-5" 3 shot groups @ 800 yds. Utah spike elk didn't like the AB @ 225 yds this past fall. I can go upto 71 gr and 3100 fps.

200 Partion seated .020" off lands, Win case, Fed 210M primer, 68.4 H1000 for 2850 fps. Shoots 10 shots into .95" @ 100 yds, SD of 8, ES of 20. Might use it on my Grizzly hunt this Sept in AK. Reached 2897 fps but found accuracy lower, thank goodness!

But then I really want to shoot it with 286 gr Paritions from my 9.3x62, CZ550 American.

 

[old #7]

I finally got out today to do some testing.
I easilly able to hit 3012 fps with a 165gr ab and rl-22.
I also hit 3002 with a 180 IB and rl-22.
I have not seen any pressure signs. The bolt lifted easily, primers were not cratered or flat and no ejector marks.
I was shooting groups of three using the 165 ab and my last group averaged 3008 and shot 5/8". I might load the 165 a bit higher but at the moment I am happy with the velocity and the group size as a package.
I loaded 12 180 IB's in half grain increments up to 64.5 grs. Next step is loading the 180 up and shooting groups. I think it will perform vevy well.

I have been thinking about the loading a foctory round in the AI and having a crush fit thing.
After looking at the dimentions of both cases it seems that if a barrel was chambered and head spaced properly for the AI round there would be more than a slight crush fit.
Lets look at the AI case. From the head to the top of the shoulder dimention should be 2.069.
The standard version is 2.109. Thats .040 longer than the AI. I don't think that would chamber.

I'm not trying to start any thing here I am just a little perplexed by the data in the manual.