.300 mag bullet for elk?

[erniec]

I have applied for my first elk hunt out west. I have a .300 win mag. I am in the process of breaking it in and slecting the best performing bullet for my rifle. Our outfitter has stated that we will see a max of a 350 yard shot. I was thinking of a 180 or 200 AccuBond. I have read on other sites where people believe the bullet to be not enough for trophy bull elk. They wrote that they would stick with the 180 Partition.


What experiences did you guys have over the past sasons.

My only experience is from what I have read and ballistic tips on whitetails here in Virginia.

Thanks is advance.

Ernie

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Go with the heavier 200g AB and dont look back if your worried about lack of penetration. I shoot it in my 300 RUM and I have shot 2 elk with it, both bullets were put in the shoulders, and they fully exited with fist size holes. 200g at even 2900fps will put the big hurt on that big bull elk.

 

[roysclockgun]

For the larger deer family (elk/moose), I'd go with a 180gr bullet over the heavier bullets, in order to take advantage of a flatter trajectory.

 

[Firehawk]

180 or 200 grain AccuBond or Partition will take care of your elk just fine. Just load the one that shoots most consistent and accurate out of your rifle. There won't be any difference in trajectory until you get out past the 350 yards you mention. Under that level, any difference in trajectory is minimal at worst (or best). Even over 350 yards I doubt there would be enough difference in trajectory to worry about. More importantly is how well you can "group" your shots at the range you intend on shooting. Shoot the load that is MOST accurate and never look back.

I have a friend that killed his bull with a 200 grain Partition a few years ago. Plenty accurate and certainly shot flat enough. He now loads 180 Accubonds because he gets clover leaf groups at good velocities and the bullet is Sub MOA past 200 yards. With that kind of accuracy, you can put the bullet where it belongs easily. If it doesn't hit where it is supposed to, it is NOT the load or bullet's fault. It is only HIS!

I killed a large cow elk this fall with a 160 grain AccuBond fired in my 7mm Rem Mag. Total penetration through the shoulder blade and upper leg bone. Bullet exited through a large exit wound.

I guess what I am saying is, both of the bullets in both of the weights you are mentioning, will give you the desired results if they hit the right place. Choose the bullet the gives you the best chance at hitting the "right" place.

Have fun and congratulations!

Firehawk

 

[FOTIS]

180 or 200 grain AccuBond or Partition will take care of your elk just fine.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

 

[erniec]

thanks for the information. That is kind of what I figured, but wanted some reassurance since I don't have any field experience other than whitetails.

Thanks again,

ernie

 

[roysclockgun]

erniet wrote: "That is kind of what I figured, but wanted some reassurance since I don't have any field experience other than whitetails. "

I have taken a fair number of whitetails, pronghorn and mule deer, but only one bull elk. I killed the bull at 304yds using a 30-06 180gr bullet. All three hits were deadly, but the bull did not drop until the third strike, which caught him an inch under his left eye. He walking behind a herd of cows and calves, coming at me. The first shot, downhill, lanced down through, right of his spine and stopped below his heart. The second shot went left of his spine, notching the base of his antler, splitting his skull on the way and also stopped low in the chest cavity. Given that experience and what reading that I have done, causes me to conclude that the 180gr bonded bullet is a good pill to use on bull elk. The 200gr bullet shot as well in my rifle, but showed more drop at range. Plus, using the 180gr bullet for all hunting is a plus, since one does not have to re-zero to hunt various animals. Since taking that bull, I went to a 7mmRemMag in a single shot Browning. The 7RemMag is the only cartridge that has made me give up my 30-06. I appreciate the flatter shooting that the Mag provides.

 

[Firehawk]

Roysclockgun brings up an interesting phenomenen (sp?) or point. Elk are very large animals and can be tough to bring down. I also have only killed one elk. But I live in Utah and have many friends who kill elk regularly. Most who want a serious "elk" gun, shoot a .338 Winchester because it carries more energy and makes a bigger hole. Still, they have to occasionally shoot their elk a couple of times or more, with good shot placement. I believe shot PLACEMENT is the MOST important variable here.

The advice that I now adhere to is this, "Keep shooting until the elk is on the ground DEAD." I realize that occasionally we loose a roast or two due to shooting extra shots on a mortally wounded animal, but I would rather loose one roast than an entire animal because I "thought" my shot was good and he would go down soon. KEEP shooting until he is down. One fellow poster suggested that the rule would be "Keep shooting til the tongue is hanging out and all four legs are in the air."

If you look back at my post a month or so ago "First elk meets 160 AccuBond" I describe my reasoning behind this thought process. I shot three times. All three shots were kill shots. She fell to the first shot (the one I describe above) and slid down the slope a bit but her head was still up. I then shot her in the neck and she slid further down the mountain and was still kicking so I hit her again (This shot was too high as she had gradually slid closer to me but I kept the same elevation hold- my bad). All three shots took a matter of seconds and all three bullets fully penetrated and exited the animal.

Elk are HUGE animals and our bullets regardless of caliber are very small in comparison to their bodies. Just keep shooting til it's done. Practice alot so you can "call" your shot perfectly and then use a good stout bullet such as the ones in question and you will get your elk down.

Good luck and have fun!

Firehawk

 

[roysclockgun]

Although I was in the US Army for three years, I missed going to the "garden spot of S.E. Asia" and seeing any combat. Many comrades went, saw action and returned to tell the tales. One repeated story is how fast unmotivated troops will fall and stay down when not seriously hit. Heck, I am the last one to blame them. However, my point is, deer to include elk, have no desire to lay down when hit. They never contemplate how badly they are wounded or think about calling for a Medic. IMO, their one thought after being hit and before shock may set in, is FLIGHT, most ricky tick! They want to get away from whatever is stinging and/whacking them. If they are knocked off their feet and are in any way, able to move away, especially with a herd, they will go! So, for anyone who does not know these things, Firehawk is absolutely correct in saying continue to shoot until you are totally convinced that the animal's motor functions have ceased to respond and he no longer is making any attempt to rise and flee. On my elk, the rancher helped me quarter and pack out the animal. He was the one who pointed out that the bull could not have survived any of the three hits. After that he did say that he'd lost count of bulls he'd helped hunters track and never found. Once the bull is moving and the body is doing all possible to keep him erect, he will go like the dickens and perhaps not drop until his back trail is cold. None of us wants to have that happen, so use the premium bullets and put them into the beast as long as he is moving.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Out to 500-600 yards, I would pick a 300 WM over a 338 WM any day. It will hit harder, plain and simple. The bullets are going faster with a higher BC. Maybe not as heavy, but how many elk need a bullet heavier then 200g with a shoulder shot?? I haven't witnessed an elk get up after being hit with any 180g or 200g bullet from a 300 WM or 300 RUM in the shoulders out to 600 yards. Same could probly be said for the 338 WM, but still, you look at the ballistics and the 300 WM beats the 338 WM hands down for LR performance.

 

[roysclockgun]

remingtonman wrote: "Out to 500-600 yards, I would pick a 300 WM over a 338 WM any day."

No doubt about what remingtonman wrote. Before you think about killing them, you must make a killing strike. IMO on the shots to which remingtonman directs his statement, a rifleman has a far better chance at making a killing strike with a 300WinMag then with the 338WinMag.
The only point at which I would want the greater close in killing power of larger bores, is in the case of facing dangerous game. I read, years ago, that guides used pump shotguns with slugs to back up hunters after tiger. No doubt other backup firearms were used by various guides, but the close-in stopping power of a 12ga slug is hard to beat. The same has to be true when using rifle calibers larger then .30. Large bore translates in large wound channel. At greater ranges though, the large bore loses out. Sure, a rifleman who can handle great recoil punishment can take a big bore magnum cartridge and do great things at most any range, but that is the exception and not the general rule. The 300WinMag in a standard weight hunting rifle, provides recoil that most average sized, motivated riflemen can become accustomed to and handle without flinching.

 

[Firehawk]

Remington Man, At 500-600 yards a hunter better dang well be able to SHOOT WELL!!!! That is flat out a long ways away. Hunters who practice shooting at those distances "typically" have specialized their equipment as well. They use specialized scopes and matched calibers to bullets etc to provide that proverbial "perfect" combination of trajectory and energy etc.

What I said about the .338 Winchester is that MY friends have purchased them as bull elk specific calibers. They use these rifles to shoot elk at normal ranges all the time and don't ever feel "undergunned". I never once claimed that the .338 Winchester had better ballistics than a .300 Win. It does carry an "elk worthy" bullet at terrific energy levels to "normal" ranges ie up to 400 yards. None of these guys can shoot well enough at 500-600 yards to take that kind of shot. They also don't try to, but that said, if they were set up with the right equipment, an accurate .338 Win would do great at 500-600 yards. But the trajectory would need to be compensated for properly (ie scope with range compensating turrets etc.).

If I were trying to put together an "ultimate" trully long range elk rifle, the 300 Ultra Mag, 300 Weatherby and 30-378 Weatherby would be MY choice before a 300 Win Mag. If elk were the main quarry, then I think one would have to consider a 338 Ultra or 340 Weatherby as more of the "good" when long range hunting for elk size game. But.......do we really need it? Probably not. Can we handle the recoil? Most can't. Can we afford to shoot it often enough to be a good long range shooter? Those type of cartridges burn alot more fuel than a standard magnum and the Weatherby brass is flat out expensive.

I run a machine at the local gun range here called a "zero-matic". It is a large contraption that helps hold a rifle still to make the zeroing process go a little quicker. We always get a huge rush around the middle of September, about two weeks prior to the elk hunt openers. I am shocked at the HUGE amount of people that buy these "mega magnums" for elk hunting and then don't dare to shoot them. Sometimes it is because of cost, but it is always because of recoil fear, whether they admit it or not.

They rely on the guy at the range to zero their rifles at the 100 yard range and then go hunting. It drives me CRAZY and I know some people have been offended by me telling them they need to get a different gun that they can shoot. I guess it is my way of helping out a little in the ethics arena. I am still shocked at how many people there are who think that the 7mm or 300 standard mags are literally "death rays" that require no hold over to 500 yards. Noone wants to believe me when I show them the ballistics charts. I am still a little bit amazed at how closely my 7mm-08 matches my 7mm Rem Mag in normal hunting ranges. At 300 yards I doubt anyone could tell a difference and the animals definitely won't be able to tell. I have read where a HUGE percentage of animals are shot at under 200 yards. Hardly requires a "super magnum" now does it?

Long range hunting (350+ yards)on the other hand is a different beast and this is where the "magnums" begin to pull away from the lower powder capacity cartridges.

Anyway, I digress and I must stop my rambling.

Tom1911, shoot a 180-200 Nosler AccuBond or Partition accurately in your 300 Win and eat many elk roasts. Good Luck!

Firehawk

 

[roysclockgun]

While I am always a bit skeptical of some hunters claims of 500+ yd shots on deer and/or elk, I will not challenge their statements. That said, there are precious few hunters who, by their credentials, should be making that sort of shot on game that is held in high regard by genuine sportsmen. I am of the opinion that the vast majority of hunters have some undeniable need to stretch the greatness of their exploits. Plainly stated, they lie. Secondly, given the number of shooters that I have observed flinching at the range, I have deduced that rifles in magnum calibers have been vastly oversold to those unqualified by temperment to use them. In any caliber where magnum versions are offered, the potential gain in MV can only be realized when in the hands of expert riflemen. I believe that for the average hunter, the magnums are a waste of money.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I will say that with specialized equipment, the knowledge, and time and practice to shoot at the range that 500-600 yard shots are quite easy. I have made many many of them. I dont anticipate a shot under 200 yards where I hunt. I have always practiced at 300 yards on milk jugs since I was about 12. I just kept graduating the distance. I have taken long range accuracy, and turned it over into long range hunting. When your rifle can consistently print moa groups at 800 yards, you can hit deer and elk easily. I use a nikon 800 rangefinder to get the exact distance. I then have leupold target knob scopes that I dial up for the distance so I can hold dead on. Granted you have wind, etc... but thats where you can control if you want to shoot or not. I myself wont shoot in the wind if its about more then 5mph, which I know because I havea brunton windmeter. After your load development, you can enter your data into a ballistics program to get your trajectory exactly out to 1500 yards in 25 yards increments. The next thing to do is start shooting out to the max range you intend to shoot at an animal. In my case, I have a 14" steel gong at 1150 yards I shoot at quite often with my Factory rem 700 300 RUM. I can wack that thing on the 2nd and 3rd and 4th shot quite often. Granted I cant hit it on the 1st, but when you shoot 2x the distance your going to shoot an animal, 500 yards is a piece of cake. I'm not trying to brag or anything, because there are people out there that are a hell of a lot better shot than me, but Its safe to say I could wack any deer or elk out to 800 yards with my 300 RUM on a nonwindy day and not really have to think twice about it.

 

[Firehawk]

Remington,

This is my point exactly. You have somewhat specialized equipment, but most importantly you have PRACTICED alot the shots at ranges far further than you hope to kill your animals at. You are doing it the "right" way. Unfortunately, many think that because they have the caliber that is designed for long range hunting, they automatically can take those shots when in reality they have no business to do so.

FH

 

[roysclockgun]

remington among other things, wrote:... "I'm not trying to brag or anything, because there are people out there that are a hell of a lot better shot than me, but Its safe to say I could wack any deer or elk out to 800 yards with my 300 RUM on a nonwindy day and not really have to think twice about it."....

Maybe you can make 800 yd shots regularly and "not really have to think twice about it." However, I have shot at prairie dogs at 500 yards with a 7mmRemMag, loaded with 175gr bullets, shooting off a Bullsbag, and seen the wind blow the bullet a foot, one way or the other. At 800 yards, even a wind device set up from your position only helps a bit, because you will not know what sort of wind that bullet will encounter when flying over your 800 yard range. Add to that, the fact that deer will seldom give you time to construct a solid shooting rest. So unless you are always setting up for a specific shot, I question whether your typical 800 yard shot on game really takes into account how easy it may be to only cripple and not kill humanely. IMO we owe it to the game to not take 800 yd pot shots, unless we are preset on that location and have already made ranging shots. Your claims are beginning to lean a little to what I have in my sig, in terms of whether they are "dream" or "reality". In matches, of course shots are made at more then 800 yds, but on game there are simply too many variables involved to address an 800 yd shot in such a chavalier manner. I have seen and heard too many claims of long shots by hunters who can never duplicate the same on a range test. Most of the time, their 800 yds turns out to be a measured 300 yards.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well go to longrangehunting.com and preapre to have an eye opening experience where people take 1500 yard shots. So whatever suits your fancy. Just to let you know, my 800 yard shot really is a 800 yard shot unless my rangefinder is 500 yards off. People that dont shoot that far dont really have an understanding of what it takes. What it does take is for them to actually see it. I will give you an example now. I went out last week to shoot my 300 RUM at my 14" steel gong at 1150 yards. There were 3 people at the range. I was setting up everything and they were looking at me like I was crazy. After I showed them where I was shooting, they were really looking at me like I was crazy. My sister was spotting for me through the spotting scope, I had my video camera rolling so I can watch it for reference and non believers like yourself. Anyways, I have been completely honest about never being able to hit it on the 1st shot, however, how many hunters you know donot hit a deer on the 1st shot at even 300 yards. I am usually no more then a couple clicks off that range on the 1st shot. After my sister tells me where I hit, I simply put a couple clicks on here or there, and the 2nd and 3rd and 4th shots will usually resound in a wack. In that case, these guys were literally amazed. They were surprised I was hitting anywhere close to my target, let alone hitting it. I am 20 years old, and to have 40-50 year old guys say thats amazing is what keeps me going. Dont sit here and tell me my 800 yard shot is only 300 yards. I very know what I'm doing here. I put over 2000 rounds a year through my 4 rifles. I really dont have that much specialized equipment, I just know how to use it to its full potential. If it was not for the help on longrangehunting.com I dont think a lot of it would be possible. I guess seeing is believing though. Put it this way, with my rifles, I can take my friends out, tell them to hold dead ona milk jug at 525 yards and bang wack. The jug goes flying. This is from people that dont really know a thing about a rifle. You take there rifle with a basic 3-9 scope and it will take them at least 5-6-7 shots to hit it. Its all a matter of equipment and the know how and practice to use it. This is why I am a little skeptical of sharing my hunting experiences on here because my average shot is longer then the average hunters shoot. Thats why I spend most my time on another bored where people dont slam ya for making a 800 yard shot. Look how many deer are wounded each year from the average joe making a bad running shot on a buck at 200 yards. Far more then the marksman that can put his shot in the vitals at the range he practices at. Thats all I'm saying.

 

[roysclockgun]

remington wrote: ...."Look how many deer are wounded each year from the average joe making a bad running shot on a buck at 200 yards."....

Citing someone else using poor judgement does not justify your own!
You are claiming world class shooting and throwing out the figures as if that sort of shooting is common place for you. You have lost all credibility. If you can shoot as you claim, kindly post photos of your shooting medals. I am certain that you don't want to keep your wonderful skills and accomplishments in the closet. Do you?

 

[Reloder28]

Ernie,

To answer your question:

180 or 200 gr AccuBond, Partition, Grand Slam, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Swift A frame, Scirocco for loaders.

Core-Lokt Ultra , Federal Fusion in commercial ammo. I'd stay away from that Winchester junk.

Any of the above will work well. My preference is the 180 AccuBond, first choice or the 180 Partition, second. Third place goes to the Grand Slam without hesitation. Pick one that shoots in your gun and use it confidently.


Keep your powder dry,
Reloder28

 

[Jon A]

Roysclockgun, I've been conversing with Remingtonman_25_06 on other boards for quite some time and have absolutely no reason to doubt what he says. It's easier to believe when you actually practice and become good at those ranges yourself. Maybe you should try it.

The "great skill" beyond all others that one learns is when to NOT pull the trigger. It isn't a match where the time has started and you HAVE to shoot X number of rounds in a given amount of time, even if there are gale force winds. With practice, you learn your limits--when to say when and let the animal walk.

You DON'T need to be BETTER than people who compete day in and day out under any conditions and win matches in order to make one killing shot in a big vital zone only under the conditions of your own choosing. Not pulling the trigger when the conditions are out of your comfort zone for the range doesn't "lose" you anything as it does in a match.

Practice makes Perfect. Try it sometime, it's fun.