.300 Savage 130 grain TSX or TTSX for elk?

[Deerslayer0823]

The only bad thing with using a 300 Savage is you won't have the hydrostatic shock that you would have with higher velocity rounds. The Partition may be too tough to open all the way. I would try the Ballistic Tips in 150, or the AccuBond in 150. I think they would open up and expand correctly given the 300 Savage velocities. With the way theyperform, they just might have hydrostatic shock available.

For me, I have a Savage 99 with a 24" bbl, and I push the 150 gr bullets to 2700 fps. After getting some great advice from a good friend who is a mmoderator on these boards, I will be using the Ballistic Tips, and or the Accubonds. They will expand at 300 Savage velocities.

 

[SJB358]

I wouldn't fear a PT opening up till your less than 2000. They are soft in the front end. They open up very nicely down a little lower than that even but at 2000 or better you'll have a perfectly expanded bullet, if you can catch it.

 

[Tobey284]

velocity is your friend with the barnes, when in doubt go lighter and faster, that little 130 will surprise you in the penetration dept. keep in mind that he's loading for a 700, he should be able to come right close to a 308 with a strong action and that barrel length, I have had no trouble getting to 3000 with 130's and 2650 with jacketed 165's in the kid's 300.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

I was trying to give advice on velocity to keep the kick manageable for his daughter, so she wouldn't pick up the bad habit of flinching.

130 gr monos might work good, but I know the 150's will work just as well, and you don't have to throttle the 300 Savage up to have it work the way it has since the 1920's.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

FYI, I'm shooting 150 Speer Hot-Cor in the 300 Savage, and using LeveRevolution powder. I got the idea from here:
http://ataleoftwothirties.com/?p=1026

The LVR is nice because it is a low pressure powder and recoil seems to be less than with other powders while speeds are excellent. This seems to be true with its use in the 35 Remington ( I load that a lot) and from what I've seen in the 300 Savage too.

I know it's outside the box, but a faster/less recoil powder that lets you shoot a slightly heavier bullet (150 TTSX) could work out well.

Completely agree with you Dr. Vette!
Thank you fortthe article post, thar was awesome!
I'm going to do that same exact thing!
Should work very well in my 24" bbl Savage 99!

 

[taylorce1]

I was trying to give advice on velocity to keep the kick manageable for his daughter, so she wouldn't pick up the bad habit of flinching.

130 gr monos might work good, but I know the 150's will work just as well, and you don't have to throttle the 300 Savage up to have it work the way it has since the 1920's.

I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring your advice. However, a 150 grain AB bullet at 2500-2600 fps recoils the same as a 130 grain TTSX bullet at 2900 fps according to recoil calculators. In fact if I'm pushing the 150 grain bullet 2600 fps the 130 actually recoils less all the way around. Plus my daughter already handles NBT 125's at 3000 fps so the 130's aren't a big change.

The second reason for the 130 is that it has less drop to 400 yards and gets there with the essentially the same energy as the 150 grain bullet. The drop difference is anywhere from 5-9 inches more from the 14" drop the 130 gives me at 400 yards. 400 yards is the max I figure I'm going to still get adequate expansion from the TTSX as it's still going nearly 2000 fps at the elevation we hunt elk.

While I don't intend to have my daughter take that 400 yard shot, I know she's capable of shooting that far if the right shot presents itself. She regularly practices at the local 300 yard range blowing up 1 gal jugs of water from field positions with her current load. I agree there is nothing wrong with old school results, I don't see anything wrong with updating the .300 Savage. Right now on paper at least the 130 grain bullet is the better performer all the way around.

 

[super-7]

I think the 130 will serve you well. I agree when starting off youngsters that consistency , and the feel at the bench should be the same as on a hunt. That instills confidence, which then produces the desired result be it acceptable groups or animals in the freezer.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

The comment used with LVR and the 35 Remington is that "you can't get enough (LVR) powder in the case to ever harm yourself or the rifle." As the 300 Savage is a very similar capacity, I have found the same to be true.

Keep us posted on what you decide to do.

That's amazing Dr. Vette!
I will be looking for LVR powder now to use in my Savage 99 and with 150's

 

[Greg Nolan]

The load you're setting up will do just fine. The 130 gr TTSX will weigh more than a 150 cup and core when it's over and you won't have to worry about it coming apart on a shoulder shot. You know I'm an AccuBond guy but when I lived in California I had to use TSX and TTSX for pigs in the condor zone and out to 300 yds they work real good on tough old boars and opened on sows just fine with a 2900 fps rifle. Good luck and post pictures of the elk.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

Hi Taylorce1!
Sorry I didn't see your previous post.
I didn't take it that you were ignoring me.
Im just wondering if the 130's will have enough sectional density to plow through heavy muscle, and heavy bones and exit on the off side.
The .300 Savage is a great deer cartridge, and a marginal elk cartridge.
If you're thinking you'll have hydrostatic shock with the 130, you might.
But I would go with a 150 Mono bullet, like Barnes,or an E-Tip from Nosler. You're going to need all the sectional density you need. You will need the entrance and exit wound to be pumping as much blood as possible.
I've seen guys use .300 Mags with 150's, and have the hydrostatic shock, and have their elk run for 200 - 300 yds over tough terrain. Now, my buddy uses a .300 Weatherby, and shoots 180's. The only one shot stop I saw was his when he hit a bull quartering away, and he heart shot it.
All others the elk have run after being hit. The ones we found sooner were the ones where there was an entrance and exit wound. Much easier to track.
I don't want you or your daughter disheartened by shooting an eating sized elk, and have it run off wounded, and possibly not finding it till it's too late.
I want the two of you to have the best memory.
That's why I suggest the 150's.
They'll dig deeper, and hopefully exit.

 

[super-7]

Keep in mind that sectional density only applies to a bullet prior to impact, assuming a non-solid/expanding bullet is used. Once it impacts the target and begins to open up, the SD goes right out the window because the rate of expansion is variable. Using SD as the principal variable of interest in estimating penetration also presumes no bullet upset/yaw.

SD is nice, but too many folks assume that it applies to all bullets and not just solids.

( that is not my quote , but an excerpt from a ballistics book. )

The big reason the 130 gr will work better is velocity which is key for the mono metal designed bullets.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

Hmm! I don't know about SD not having anything to do with any bullet not being able to drive deep and exiting.
If that were the case, the 6.5 cartridges wouldn't work as well as they do. I've seen the mild 6.5x55 140 gr. Bullets exit on big game, and not as many 130 gr bullets in .30 caliber.
We can agree to disagree, but my money is on the 150 gr. Monos.
The .300 Savage is a mild round just like the 6.5x55. The hydrostatic shock isn't there, so you need something to destroy as many internal organs as possible, and have a decent exit wound to be pumping blood in excess.
Never have I heard any old timer say he used a 130 gr bullet on elk. Now they did use the 150 gr. factory stuff, maybe shouldn't have, but they did, and it worked. Made them a life long user.
Notice I'mnot pushing for 180 gr. Monos, which I probably should. But I'm not.
I'm thinking of his daughter, and her not liking recoil.
If it were my daughter, I would want her to have the best to help her get her elk.
150 gr. TTSX, or 150 gr E-Tip at 2500 - 2600 fps, especially if it happens to be a longer shot than expected. I would have her practice shots all the way out to 400 yds. She will know where it hits when elk season comes around.

 

[SJB358]

If you see how well a 130 TTSX penetrates you'll see where SD isn't as much of a concern. With about 99% retained weight a 130 will probably have more retained weight than a 180 PT would out of a 300 magnum.

No dog in the talk really, but a 130 at 2900-3000 will bust leg bones and joints. I think that is where the beauty of the mono's comes in. They need to be started fast in order to open.

In my opinion bullet construction means much more than SD with today's bullets. Older cup and cores and solids are different but a bullet that retains nearly all of its weight has the same SD it starts out with while a bullet that sheds a lot of weight typically ends up much lower.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

Ok....I did a little investigating.
The 130gr. TSX, or TTSX, are intended for game up to 265 lbs. (120kg).
Now, with that being said, the eating elk I went after were 350-400 lbs.
I also called Barnes, and talked to a Tech, and asked him about using their 130 gr TSX, or TTSX on elk.
He was very hesitant, and stated, " The 130's are light. I wouldn't personally shoot at long distances with the 130's, they wont open up and penetrate. If anything, keep shots under 200 yds. I personally would suggest the 165 gr XBT, TSX, or TTSX, since they are rated for elk hunting. Start with 2400 - 2500 fps to manage recoil."
So there we have it, straight from the Horse's mouth.

 

[SJB358]

I wouldn't hardly mess with a monolithic bullet started much less than 2800-2900. Really no need and I'd have more fear of the bullet not opening up well unless it's a larger one like a .338 or bigger.

I'd like to see the 130 put into some jugs. Maybe one of these days I'll grab a box and try them in my 300 Savage. It would be interesting to see what comes outta the far end.

 

[taylorce1]

Ok....I did a little investigating.
The 130gr. TSX, or TTSX, are intended for game up to 265 lbs. (120kg).
Now, with that being said, the eating elk I went after were 350-400 lbs.
I also called Barnes, and talked to a Tech, and asked him about using their 130 gr TSX, or TTSX on elk.
He was very hesitant, and stated, " The 130's are light. I wouldn't personally shoot at long distances with the 130's, they wont open up and penetrate. If anything, keep shots under 200 yds. I personally would suggest the 165 gr XBT, TSX, or TTSX, since they are rated for elk hunting. Start with 2400 - 2500 fps to manage recoil."
So there we have it, straight from the Horse's mouth.

Your info was different from my friends as the info you recieved from Barnes contradicts what I have. For years Barnes has always stated drop a bullet weight and up your velocity with their bullets for reliable expansion and overall performance. Plus if this email I have from Barnes is correct that I got from a friend:

-----Original Message-----
From: Jordan
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:19 PM
To: emailbarnesbullets.com
Subject: Contact Form Minimum expansion velocity for TTSX

Jordan wrote:
Hi,
I was wondering what the minimum expansion velocity is for a few individual
bullets, the 7mm 140gr TTSX, .257 100gr TTSX, and the .338 210gr TTSX.

Thank you!
Jordan



Thanks for the email. All the TTSX bullets are at about 2000 fps.

Dave Card
Barnes Bullets Inc.
Customer Service/Sales
800-574-9200 ex 103
davecbarnesbullets.com

It would seem the Barnes 150 grain TTSX bullet is the worst choice for shots beyond 200 yards on any game animal in a .300 Savage based on a minimum velocity of 2000 fps. Now I won't say that the 150 won't penetrate deeper as it has more mass and if it expands less because it's slower it'll act more like a solid. However, I realize this is a compromise on my part and we'll probably never see eye to eye on this. My thought is to use the bullet that stays in the desired velocity window over the greatest range to maximize bullet performance. I just don't see where .020 SD and 20 grains is going to be a game changer in the end not when there are just as many other factors to consider.

Again like I said we just have a difference of opinion, you feel that I'm hamstringing my daughter and limiting her chance for success by using a lighter bullet with less sectional density. I feel that I'm optimizing it by using a modern style bullet that doesn't rely heavily upon SD because of its construction, and by increasing the velocity window and flattening out trajectory of the bullet out. What each of us are willing to compromise are just different things.

I wouldn't hardly mess with a monolithic bullet started much less than 2800-2900. Really no need and I'd have more fear of the bullet not opening up well unless it's a larger one like a .338 or bigger.

I'd like to see the 130 put into some jugs. Maybe one of these days I'll grab a box and try them in my 300 Savage. It would be interesting to see what comes outta the far end.

Don't worry about it Scotty, when my daughter is done with her 4H projects at the end of the month we'll set up some jugs and test the bullets for you.

 

[Deerslayer0823]

Well.....If you look at what the Technician said, the bullet is light, and keep distance to less than 200 yds. He said to use a 165 gr mono.
Plus on top of that, when shooting elk, you should use by rule of thumb, that you should have 1600 - 1700 ft.-lbs of energy at the target. You will have that at around 150 yds, max.
I wouldn't be shooting a quarter of a mile with the 130 gr, at elk. You're going to fatally wound an elk and never retrieve it.
As with going with a 150 mono, I was wrong. The Tech suggested 165 gr. monos.
The .300 Savage has never been a long range, nor will it ever be a long range round. It's meant for up close and personal shots.
Go with the 130's, don't shoot them over 200 yds.
If you want to keep your daughter hunting, and not get discouraged, don't shoot at elk 4 football fields away. Only experienced marksmen attempt shots that long.
You owe it to your daughter, to the elk, and the rest of the hunting community to make sure you anchor your quarry quickly and humanely.
If you need more reach out of a cartridge, have your daughter shoot a 7mm-08 with a mono bullet. Or go up to a .308 or .30-06, where there is ample power to spare, even at longer distances.

 

[taylorce1]

Well.....If you look at what the Technician said, the bullet is light, and keep distance to less than 200 yds. He said to use a 165 gr mono.
Plus on top of that, when shooting elk, you should use by rule of thumb, that you should have 1600 - 1700 ft.-lbs of energy at the target. You will have that at around 150 yds, max.
I wouldn't be shooting a quarter of a mile with the 130 gr, at elk. You're going to fatally wound an elk and never retrieve it.
As with going with a 150 mono, I was wrong. The Tech suggested 165 gr. monos.
The .300 Savage has never been a long range, nor will it ever be a long range round. It's meant for up close and personal shots.
Go with the 130's, don't shoot them over 200 yds.
If you want to keep your daughter hunting, and not get discouraged, don't shoot at elk 4 football fields away. Only experienced marksmen attempt shots that long.
You owe it to your daughter, to the elk, and the rest of the hunting community to make sure you anchor your quarry quickly and humanely.
If you need more reach out of a cartridge, have your daughter shoot a 7mm-08 with a mono bullet. Or go up to a .308 or .30-06, where there is ample power to spare, even at longer distances.

How many elk are killed every year with handguns and muzzle loaders that don't ever produce 1600-1700 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle let alone any range. That doesn't stop these people from being successful hunters. There is absolutely no rule of thumb to kill an elk with energy, it's all about shot placement with a bullet that will penetrate to the vitals. I've seen lesser bullets than a 130 grain Barnes bullet we're talking about work on elk.

More shots at 400 yards are taken by people who have no business shooting that far on that I'll agree. However, assuming that I'm looking for that kind of shot or that I'll encourage one from my daughter is insane. I do know what my daughter is capable of doing and any shot taken will be well within her realm of capabilities. I'm just choosing the tools for my daughters tool box that I feel are the best for the job, as her abilities progress I'll change things up to match her progress.

Changing rifles isn't an option, as my daughter doesn't want a different rifle. Plus I'd like to know what a .308 is going to add to the mix that she can't get done with her .300 Savage. I can load the .300 Savage up to .308 pressures if I choose as I'm not constrained my a model 99 action limitations since her is in a M700 action. I'm sure "if" I choose to push things that I can load the .300 to 99% of what the .308 can do. What I'm choosing to do is to keep recoil low and extend the range to open more possibilities for my daughter.

 

[SJB358]

Taylor I'm in your camp here. I do look for a certain amount of energy but honestly it's more the FPS mark I look for within my effective range. I'd hunt elk with my granddads 300 Savage all day long. He took a few in the old days with 180 Silvertips at probably 2300-2400 at the muzzle. Never had one get away that I knew about. The 130 TTSX will retain more than any Silvertips could and as long as they are kept to above 2K at Impact I believe you'll do very well.

The jug test will be very enlightening. Not a big mono guy but in this case they are hard to beat.

 

[super-7]

I'm with Taylor here too, again speed and monos go hand in hand.
Shoot the 130 , get comfortable with it and go hunting. As for nobody using 130 gr bullets to kill elk well that's a misnomer, I'd be pretty confident in saying many many elk have died to a 130 gr bullet . Maybe very few in .30 cal but drop that down to .277 cal and I'd venture to say its likley high on the list of all time elk takers.
Not trying to offend you but using logic a 165 gr mono in a .300 savage would eat up more case capacity making it even less effective out past the 250 yrd mark.
In a 30-06 it's a different story , but for myself I very seldom load heavier then the 155 gr bullets in .308 win as case capacity is comprimised. That's my personal opinion and how I look at and do things, it's not the golden rule by any means. But has served me well.

Good luck on the hunt with your daughter.